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Seriously I don't think there is any preeminent evil greater than
that offered<br>
by Hillary Clinton. She will indeed turn out the vote because there
are a great number<br>
of Hillary-haters out there who usually don't bother to vote.<br>
<br>
I would be almost certain that HC will be the Democrat candidate.
But I do not<br>
believe that any committed anti-war citizen would vote for "Hillary
Hawk".<br>
<br>
*<br>
<blockquote>"This is why I keep pushing to take back the Democratic
Party. Step by step. Inch by inch. "<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hillary will certainly take the Dems back to being the War Party.
Not that they haven't<br>
done that pretty well with O-bot.<br>
<br>
*<br>
I don't really like Rand Paul. <br>
No, I should say I really don't like Rand Paul.<br>
<br>
He does share a number of his principled old man's views <br>
although Rand Paul is not really libertarian per se and he is
certainly not<br>
genuinely anti-war. But he would be less a hawk than Hillary.<br>
<br>
I don't see the neo-con wing of the GOP supporting a Rand Paul, and
AIPAC and their ilk would not really want to permit anything like a
Ron Paul as president. The 1% would be tickled to death to have
Hillary Clinton in the puppet strings, so I fully expect the
Republicans to nominate someone to continue to back the neo-con and
quasi-neo-con line -- either a nauseating scumbag goof like
Romney-Dole or some real asshole like McCain .<br>
<br>
Likely peace activists who vote their conscience will go 3rd party.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/12/2014 07:37 AM, C. G. Estabrook
via Peace-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:9E50AFBB-BD97-4E27-B515-1EC8EA28D344@newsfromneptune.com"
type="cite">
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Suppose the Republican wants to close foreign bases and bring US
troops (and other mercenaries) home?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That was of course Ron Paul's view. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Although the son may lack the father's resolve, he may turn
out to be a more moderate murderer than Clinton or Obama. <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A Paul/Clinton presidential election would surely bring out
the lesser-evilists for Paul.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We'd also hear a good bit of ABC - Anybody But Clinton. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 11, 2014, at 6:31 PM, Stan via Peace-discuss
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Yes I am. Extremism only works for those willing to
kill all those that disagree with them like the
leadership of ISIS.</div>
<div>BTW I have never been a Hillary fan. However she is
better than any Republican.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 11, 2014, at 12:33 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Are you really recommending
"moderation" and "compr(om)ise" with National
Socialism?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess you are ready for Hillary, Stan:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"We should have bombed Syria in the first place.
Then there would be no Caliphate." <br>
<br>
"The Caliph will attack Europe and the US ('I’m
thinking a lot about containment, deterrence and
defeat.')"<br>
<br>
"Israel has a right to defend itself. And it’s all
Hamas fault." </div>
<div><br>
"...So her doctrine/organizing principle will be 'We
came, we saw, he died.'"<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://">http://</a><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.theatlantic.com/">www.theatlantic.com/</a>international/archive/2014/08/hillary-clinton-failure-to-help-syrian-rebels-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/?single_page=true<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Aug 11, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Stan via
OccupyCU <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>For the record we do not live in the
thirties. We need to move forward from
today and quit saying this or that can not
work because it is outside the absolutism
of a few. My guess is that there were
absolutists in the thirties that prevented
moderation then as you do today. They may
have been called Communists of their day
but their refusal to comprise only
weakened the possibility for reform as
absolutists of today do. We know what
happened to many of those absolutists.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "C. G.
Estabrook" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">An immensely silly
thing to say. Is Germany outside of
history? Are the 1930s?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But Roosevelt and the American 1930s
are models? Another example of "American
exceptionalism"?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Stan
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">swag901@ymail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>They say the first to make a
Hitler comparison loses. In this
instance it applies.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:51 PM, "C.
G. Estabrook" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">If only
the good liberals had pushed to
"take back" the NSDAP in 1933.
Maybe they did.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Aug 10, 2014, at
6:46 PM, Stan via OccupyCU
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I have heard the
Goodman broadcast and
now I read it. It
seems Chomsky is
warning against
absolutism because it
frequently hurts those
it is intended to
help. This is why I
keep pushing to take
back the Democratic
Party. Step by step.
Inch by inch. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 10, 2014, at
11:07 AM, "C. G.
Estabrook via
OccupyCU" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Important
and indeed essential.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 10,
2014, at 10:58
AM, Paul Mueth
via
Peace-discuss
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;">For the
record from
the web extra
on Dem Now </div>
<div><br>
<p
style="margin:
0px 0px 1em;
padding: 0px;
direction:
ltr;"><span
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
background-color:
rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><strong><span
class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Noam,
I wanted to
ask you about
your recent <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.thenation.com/article/180492/israel-palestine-and-bds"
style="text-decoration:
none;
outline-width:
0px;">piece</a> for <em>The
Nation</em> on
Israel-Palestine
and <span
class="caps">BDS</span>.
You were
critical of
the
effectiveness
of the
boycott,
divestment and
sanctions
movement. One
of the many
responses came
from <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.thenation.com/article/180590/responses-noam-chomsky-israel-palestine-and-bds#munayyer"
style="text-decoration:
none;
outline-width:
0px;">Yousef
Munayyer</a>,
the executive
director of
the Jerusalem
Fund and its
educational
program, the
Palestine
Center. He
wrote, quote,
"Chomsky’s
criticism of <span
class="caps">BDS</span> seems
to be that it
hasn’t changed
the power
dynamic yet,
and thus that
it can’t.
There is no
doubt the road
ahead is a
long one for <span
class="caps">BDS</span>,
but there is
also no doubt
the movement
is growing ...
All other
paths toward
change,
including
diplomacy and
armed
struggle, have
so far proved
ineffective,
and some have
imposed
significant
costs on
Palestinian
life and
livelihood."
Could you
respond?</span></p>
<p
style="margin:
0px 0px 1em;
padding: 0px;
direction:
ltr;"><span
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
background-color:
rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><strong><span
class="caps">NOAM</span> <span
class="caps">CHOMSKY</span>:</strong> Well,
actually, I
did respond.
You can find
it on <em>The
Nation</em> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.thenation.com/article/180756/israel-palestine-and-bds-chomsky-replies"
style="text-decoration:
none;
outline-width:
0px;">website</a>.
But in brief,
far from being
critical of <span
class="caps">BDS</span>,
I was strongly
supportive of
it. One of the
oddities of
what’s called
the <span
class="caps">BDS</span> movement
is that they
can’t—many of
the activists
just can’t see
support as
support unless
it becomes
something like
almost
worship:
repeat the
catechism. If
you take a
look at that
article, it
very strongly
supported
these tactics.
In fact, I was
involved in
them and
supporting
them before
the <span
class="caps">BDS</span> movement
even existed.
They’re the
right tactics.</span></p>
<p
style="margin:
0px 0px 1em;
padding: 0px;
direction:
ltr;"><span
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
background-color:
rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">But
it should be
second nature
to
activists—and
it usually
is—that you
have to ask
yourself, when
you conduct
some tactic,
when you
pursue it,
what the
effect is
going to be on
the victims.
You don’t
pursue a
tactic because
it makes you
feel good. You
pursue it
because it’s
going—you
estimate that
it’ll help the
victims. And
you have to
make choices.
This goes way
back. You
know, say,
back during
the Vietnam
War, there
were debates
about whether
you should
resort to
violent
tactics, say
Weathermen-style
tactics. You
could
understand the
motivation—people
were
desperate—but
the Vietnamese
were strongly
opposed. And
many of us, me
included, were
also opposed,
not because
the horrors
don’t justify
some strong
action, but
because the
consequences
would be harm
to the
victims. The
tactics would
increase
support for
the violence,
which in fact
is what
happened.
Those
questions
arise all the
time.</span></p>
<p
style="margin:
0px 0px 1em;
padding: 0px;
direction:
ltr;"><span
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
background-color:
rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Unfortunately,
the
Palestinian
solidarity
movements have
been unusual
in their
unwillingness
to think these
things
through. That
was pointed
out recently
again by Raja
Shehadeh, the
leading figure
in—lives in
Ramallah, a
longtime
supporter, the
founder of
Al-Haq, the
legal
organization,
a very
significant
and powerful
figure. He
pointed out
that the
Palestinian
leadership has
tended to
focus on what
he called
absolutes,
absolute
justice—this
is the
absolute
justice that
we want—and
not to pay
attention to
pragmatic
policies.
That’s been
very obvious
for decades.
It used to
drive people
like Eqbal
Ahmad, the
really
committed and
knowledgeable
militant—used
to drive him
crazy. They
just couldn’t
listen to
pragmatic
questions,
which are what
matter for
success in a
popular
movement, a
nationalist
movement. And
the ones who
understand
that can
succeed; the
ones who don’t
understand it
can’t. . . . </span></p>
<br>
</div>
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