<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">The local peace group AWARE split a decade ago over a perfidious Democrat*. The minority thought that B. Obama would continue the pro-war/pro-Wall St. policies of the Bush administration; the majority (who left the group) thought he wouldn’t. Like Ophelia, they were the more deceived.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As the Obama administration dragged on (to the point of running the greatest terrorist campaign of modern times, Obama’s thousands of drone assassinations), his defenders were reduced to saying, “Well, he wants to the right thing (on e.g. jobs & war) but the Republicans won’t let him.” What nonsense. As the O. admin. concludes, it’s clear that it’s even more neocon (secret war around the world) and more neolib (secret TPP, TTIP, etc.) than its predecessor was. (To be clear, neoliberalism means using the government to secure the profits of the 1%; neoconservatism means using the military to secure the profits of the 1%.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The state Democratic party is not a million miles from the national party: it is </div><div class=""> ~ pro-war (not opposing SB 1761 - support for Israeli apartheid = the way the Obama admin. supports its stationary aircraft carrier), and </div><div class=""> ~ pro-Wall St. (not approving HB 106 - the financial transaction tax = the way to end the state’s fiscal problems**).</div><div class="">But the state Democrats claim that they want to Do the Right Thing, and the evil Republicans won’t let them (in spite of the Democrats' veto-proof majorities in both houses). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Both major parties are of course neoliberal and neoconservative. National and state, the Republicans are bad cops (‘we’ll hurt you unless you do as we say = support war/Wall St.') and the Democrats are good cops ('we’re on your side, so do as we say = support war/Wall St.’) Remember that, in the good cop/bad cop scenario, it’s the good cop who’s being disingenuous; the bad cop is telling the truth.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As some of us said a decade ago, it’s time to reject pro-war/pro-Wall St. parties and their candidates. We’ve killed a lot of people at home and abroad by not doing so. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">—CGE<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> <br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Ricky Baldwin <a href="mailto:baldwinricky@yahoo.com" class="">baldwinricky@yahoo.com</a> [sf-core] <<a href="mailto:sf-core-noreply@yahoogroups.com" class="">sf-core-noreply@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); position: relative;" class=""><div id="ygrp-msg" style="line-height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=""><div id="ygrp-text" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Georgia;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;" class=""><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_140332" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">It's true that it becomes easier to stand up for principles that have no hope of succeeding, in a way. We used to have a state senator in New York who only voted to support workers and the poor when there was either (a) virtually no chance the bill would prevail, or (b) it had virtually no chance of failing. But Carol's behavior so far seems to be the opposite of that. And what we see in the voting on the budget in general doesn't fit that pattern. I have no doubt that this threatening, etc., goes on. In fact, I know it does in some cases (publicly in the case of Rauner and the Republicans). But I "hear" a lot of things (sorry, it's an occupational pet peeve): you know, global warming is a conspiracy, people never walked on the moon, Elvis is still alive, you and Carl are FBI plants, I'm on the take, etc. But we must beware of confirmation bias and guilt by association. Carol has given us no reason to believe this is true of her. Threaten her with what? She won the election without the support of the leadership of the Party, and she has every reason to believe she can do so again. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_153591" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_118280" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">The Democratic Party leadership, the DNC, and the like, are unworthy of defense in general. But when you go to an event like the one Carl and I attended and the only fault you can find is that these two are Democrats, I think that says something. Not a word of criticism for the Republicans, who are voting as a block and the Governor who is paying their piper?<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_56081" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_57543" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">I think the reality is probably much easier to see than some vast orchestration, which doesn't appear to be in evidence in the pervasive way that would be required to pull off such a sham: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_122680" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">1. Most people are Democrats, historically. (Actually, as one of the people I consider a teacher from my early activist years used to say, "Most people are communists, they just don't know it," but that's in another sense). <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_122681" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">2. Also, there is little discipline in running as a Democrat, or Republican, or Green, etc. Where the Greens have won a spot on the official ballot, like New York, this has become obvious when candidates announce they are running as Greens and you realize you have no control over that, no matter what they espouse. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_122682" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">3. So people run as Democrats because they want to win, like Bernie Sanders is doing, though he has technically been an "Independent" most of his political career. (This is not to say that Greens should never run as Greens. As a matter of fact, though I often argue with him, I supported Carl's campaign - collected signatures, etc - as a Green against Tim Johnson, and under similar circumstances i would do so again.) <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_125620" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">4. What this means is fairly obvious: "nominal Democrats" do not all agree on the whole Party platform, which is usually not bad, by the way, on most points, if you read it -- of course it changes all the time, depending on who wins -- or even major points. You have Democrats (and Greens) who are anti-abortion, Democrats who are pro-war and who are anti-war, etc., etc., "blase, blase" as SEIU members would say.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_116809" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_112436" dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">I just think it makes more sense to support political officials when they say and do the right thing and focus the criticism on those who are saying and doing the wrong thing (like the Democrats who vote and/or speak against the poor and downtrodden, and, by the way, the Republicans who vote and speak that way), and not try to wriggle out of it by imagining some vast conspiracy. Even if it were true, it still makes less sense to criticize those who are speaking out and voting and working hard for something, because they didn't have enough votes, and having nothing to say about those who are speaking and voting and working hard against it, because the issues are what must matter most.<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_20101" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""> </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_20103" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_20102" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Ricky Baldwin</div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1436537871612_51694" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="qtdSeparateBR" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><font face="Arial" size="2" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">On Friday, July 10, 2015 8:48 AM, David Green <<a href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></font></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="y_msg_container" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div id="yiv7376287284" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436535368819_7452" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><span id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436535368819_7451" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Ricky, what concerns me is that there is a certain "fixed" odor to so many of these things. For example, with the TPP in Congress, you had just enough votes to allow some to oppose it without affecting the outcome. One sometimes gets the feelings that the fixed outcome is arranged in back rooms in order to mitigate the political damage to those most vulnerable to pressure from their constituents. Whether this is true for the "millionaire's tax" etc. I don't know. I heard that other members of the legislature threatened to refuse to speak to Carol Ammons (or work with her) if she voted "against" Israel--even though her No vote wouldn't have affected the outcome. I wonder if there are any threats involved with Democrats who oppose an obvious and easy remedy to our state's cooked-up financial crisis. I mean, Madigan has an awful lot of power to punish people.</span></div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436535368819_7496" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></span> </div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436535368819_7497" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">DG</span></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284qtdSeparateBR" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div class="yiv7376287284yahoo_quoted" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284yqt9282477254" id="yiv7376287284yqt68649" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><font face="Arial" size="2" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">On Friday, July 10, 2015 7:22 AM, Ricky Baldwin via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></font></div><blockquote style="margin: 5px 0px 0px 5px; line-height: 1.22em; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284y_msg_container" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div id="yiv7376287284" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></span></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_10964" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">I'm afraid that's an oversimplification. In reality you disagree with the action (or inaction) of certain conservative Democrats, and I agree with that, as do Ammons and Bennett. But you assign collective blame quite recklessly. You could have pointed out, as Paul did, that not all Democrats are with us in solving this crisis in a humane, rational way. But what he, and you, seem to profess not to understand is not hard. The Governor is one person and therefore responsibile for that one person's actions. "The Democrats" are many and not all alike, and voters place them in office, not their party (i.e. Madigan) alone. Carol Ammons herself is an example of someone who was elected with popular voter effort and support, quite against the wishes and designs of the Party machinery, as was publicly obvious at the time. Or have you forgotten? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_30715" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_34342" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">In fact it was some Democrats, not Greens ou say you support, but do not agree with on all points, either), who proposed the millionaires' tax and the financial transactions tax, and some worked hard for these. The fact that some nominal Democrats ("who have a 'D' by their name, as Bennett said) wouldn't vote for them, or to override the Governor's veto, is the fault of those "blue dog" Democrats, not the entire group.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_13861" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_13862" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">It appears that you seek to avoid agreeing with any Democrats by treating them as a group, a logical fallacy. If one member of AWARE says one thing, and another member another, are we trying to "have it both ways"? If a Green mishandles an election so badly as to throw any hope of winning, are Greens trying to "have it both ways" by criticizing the political system and yet doing nothing to change it? </div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_16040" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_43041" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Just admit it. There was nothing objectionable about the event you and I attended last night except that everyone in the state doesn't have a representative and senator like these two. You should disagree with them on issues where you actually have a disagreement, not these.</div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_35792" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_34341" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div id="yiv7376287284yui_3_16_0_1_1436528852124_34340" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Ricky</div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284qtdSeparateBR" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div class="yiv7376287284yahoo_quoted" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284yqt6735088034" id="yiv7376287284yqt86988" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><font face="Arial" size="2" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">On Thursday, July 9, 2015 9:30 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></font></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284y_msg_container" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div id="yiv7376287284" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">A perfect example as to why we need the Green Party.<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""> <br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284yqt1119818040" id="yiv7376287284yqtfd87816" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 21:18:03 -0500<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">sf-core@yahoogroups.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">occupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Perfidious Democrats (in Illinois, as elsewhere)<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> I've just come from a 'Joint Town Hall' rally with Illinois state senator Scott Bennett & state representative Carol Ammons. They blamed the wretched Governor Rauner for the state's budget impasse. In fact, it's entirely in the Democrats' hands. (Bennett & Ammons are both Democrats.)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> As Paul Mueth pointed out at the meeting, the Democrats have veto-proof majorities in both houses. They could pass a budget and the taxes - primarily a financial-transactions tax (HB 106) - necessary to fund it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> Ammons replied that not all those Democrat votes can be counted on. Thus the Democrats can have it both ways - they can say that they're in favor of the spending and the taxes, but then allow enough no votes so that they won't pass.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> The same thing happened with Speaker Madigan's 'millionaires' tax.' In both cases the Democrats can tell the public they're interested in solving the problem - and then quietly show their 1% donors that they won't do it.<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> —CGE<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284yqt1119818040" id="yiv7376287284yqtfd00957" style="line-height: 1.22em;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.chambana.net_mailman_listinfo_peace-2Ddiscuss&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=LJeOlFEcfqeumbK7sxbGa2TB2EZ__rMIqyfr7uOfHEE&m=hYvtxQW_fmskZI5SoeY8B7sT7dKPoz_UParOFtJzsb8&s=uPee_8_Qn5jBRm_pZlrU8hDrU6uQsGjADAWs686yQQM&e=" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="yiv7376287284yqt6735088034" id="yiv7376287284yqt75571" style="line-height: 1.22em;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.chambana.net_mailman_listinfo_peace-2Ddiscuss&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=LJeOlFEcfqeumbK7sxbGa2TB2EZ__rMIqyfr7uOfHEE&m=hYvtxQW_fmskZI5SoeY8B7sT7dKPoz_UParOFtJzsb8&s=uPee_8_Qn5jBRm_pZlrU8hDrU6uQsGjADAWs686yQQM&e=" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br clear="none" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div></div></div></div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; 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