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<p>John, </p>
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<p>Thank you for saying so well, what I was not able to articulate. <br>
</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b> John McMahon <jmcmahon6@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 5, 2015 6:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karen Aram<br>
<b>Cc:</b> info@mail.whitehouse.gov<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ufpj-activist] [peace.geezers] IMPORTANT ANALYSIS; Bacevich "Beyond Isis"</font>
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<div><font size="4">Karen: Thank you for your thoughtful comment! I agree with you completely! </font>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">When I was stationed at Fort Huachuca, Arizona, a friend poked a rattlesnake that was at rest; probably sleeping. On awakening it struck nearly hitting my friend. It could have been me. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">There is something to be said for not ‘poking' or provoking <b>
<font color="#ff2600">people whom we seem to need (?) as enemies</font></b> (Russia, China and Iran).<font color="#9929bd" face="Arial Black"><b> </b></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font color="#9929bd" face="Arial Black"><b><br>
</b></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><font color="#9929bd" face="Arial Black"><b>No Nation ‘needs enemies’!</b></font> Alas, it appears to me that our entire US economic system is built on such a preposterous need; much to the detriment of the entire social fabric. Would that
this were not true… </font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">By the way “When (if) the big battle comes with Russia and China…” is presumptive! This is a Most Dangerous Practice our Politicians have been using to fuel the Weapons Industry and keeping us in a perpetual state of war and preparing for
war!. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 23px;">Presumption is the first phase in the self-fulfilling prophesy. <font face="Arial">The ‘trick’ for us is to find ways to inform people suffering delusions and misconceptions about needing enemies.</font><i style="font-family: Georgia;">
</i><font color="#9929bd" face="Comic Sans MS"><b>They must discover that their Practice is insane,,, </b></font></span></div>
<div><font size="4"><font color="#ff2600" face="Arial"><br>
</font></font></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 23px;"><font face="Arial">Also, </font><font style="font-family: Arial;">accounts from the Citizenry being exploited and </font><font style="font-family: Arial;">victimized by the USA using them as </font><font face="Arial">‘Proxies’,
it is considered by them to be a singularly loathsome Neo-Colonial Exploitation Practice by which the United States and Other countries garner the world’s material resources. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 23px;"><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 23px;"><font face="Arial">In the near term all our diplomatic efforts will fail miserably if we cannot learn to stop this practice! The only by-product for American Taxpayers is being forced to pay for wars we do not want that rage
on 24/7/365</font></span>
<div><font size="4"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Peace and Blessings in Solidarity</font></div>
<div><font size="4">John C. McMahon Boise, Idaho<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Dec 5, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">The very suggestion "When (if) the big battle comes with Russia and China, he might be on the pro-war side." is offensive because, the US has been provoking war with Russia and China and the very idea of WW3,
with nuclear powers even with our use of proxies, must be considered an outrage to be discouraged, not contemplated.</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ufpj-activist <<a href="mailto:ufpj-activist-bounces+karenaram=hotmail.com@lists.mayfirst.org">ufpj-activist-bounces+karenaram=hotmail.com@lists.mayfirst.org</a>>
on behalf of Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, December 5, 2015 2:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Swanson<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Hartsough; IPB Board YAHOOGROUP (<a href="mailto:IPBstct@yahoogroups.com">IPBstct@yahoogroups.com</a>); UFPJ Activist List;
<a href="mailto:peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net">peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [ufpj-activist] [peace.geezers] IMPORTANT ANALYSIS; Bacevich "Beyond Isis"</font>
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<div>Bacevich is of the “realist" school; moral considerations are avoided in his essays. One only hopes that his “realism” has a moral tone, that it will lead to the conclusion that (more) war (now) is not a good idea, but the morality argument is not obvious
in what he writes.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>—mkb</div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Dec 5, 2015, at 12:13 PM, David Swanson <<a href="mailto:davidcnswanson@gmail.com">davidcnswanson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Exactly. Thank you for translating :-)<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra" style="text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal;">
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Cole Harrison<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cole@masspeaceaction.org" target="_blank">cole@masspeaceaction.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">David has a point. Bacevich says that total war like WW II is a possible option. He does not think it appropriate to the circumstances. That makes him a tactical ally of our movement. When (if) the big battle comes with Russia and China, he
might be on the pro-war side.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:22 PM, David Swanson<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidcnswanson@gmail.com" target="_blank">davidcnswanson@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div dir="ltr">I agree with both of you yet again that he's saying that; it's not all he's saying.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:19 PM, David Hartsough<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidhartsough@igc.org" target="_blank">davidhartsough@igc.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">I agree with Joe. Bacevich is saying that choosing World War IV would be insane and collective suicide.<br>
David Hartsough<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/4/2015 5:22 AM, David Swanson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Again I understand that that's his point, but for much of the middle of the thing he goes along with the idea that war is OK it would just have to be done on a larger scale. There are a couple of problems. One is that it still wouldn't "work."
It would produce a global anti-US movement of unprecedented scale. The other is that war is a vicious crime even if small scale and "successful" -- and there are a great many people more than happy to pay his price in dollars and lives for what he suggests
could be done if only those dollars and lives were spent (which, yet again, I do understand he wants us to see as too steep a price).<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Joseph Gerson<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:JGerson@afsc.org" target="_blank">JGerson@afsc.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">David,</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">You are missing his point. By describing the numbers of troops that would be required for a generation, their financial and political costs, he is clearly describing how untenable such a policy would be. It
is worth looking at the historian William Polk's piece (referenced by Noam Chomsky) which describes the trap into which the West is falling and concludes with a sensible approach to counter the collective madness.</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Joseph</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Swanson <<a href="mailto:davidcnswanson@gmail.com" target="_blank">davidcnswanson@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David McReynolds<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net</a>; Joseph Gerson; IPB Board YAHOOGROUP (<a href="mailto:IPBstct@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:IPBstct@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">IPBstct@yahoogroups.com</a>);
UFPJ Activist List<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [ufpj-activist] IMPORTANT ANALYSIS; Bacevich "Beyond Isis"</font>
<div> </div>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">I know his intention is to discourage war, but a big chunk of that article is written on the assumption that war would be OK if it were done on a larger scale (though he hopes we won't want to). I'm sorry he's lonely though. Maybe he should reconsider
that Christian conservative thing :-)<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 10:04 PM, David McReynolds<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidmcreynolds7@gmail.com" target="_blank">davidmcreynolds7@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div><b>Dear David Swanson,<br>
<br>
</b></div>
<b>I found the writing of Bacevich helpful. He is not a pacifist, he considers himself a "Christian conservative", but he is an important (and lonely) voice against the drive to endless war.<br>
<br>
</b></div>
<b>Peace,<br>
</b></div>
<b>david McReynolds<br>
</b></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 9:17 PM, David Swanson<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidcnswanson@gmail.com" target="_blank">davidcnswanson@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div dir="ltr">Beautiful in its grotesque delusion. More war would work better. More war like in Vietnam. This is his model for success? I hope only dedicated peace actvists committed to seeing the best in everyone read this, because anybody else reading this
is likely to pay attention to the 90% of it that makes a crazed argument for greater war.<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Joseph Gerson<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:JGerson@afsc.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:JGerson@afsc.org" target="_blank">JGerson@afsc.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
</div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div>
<div><br>
Friends,<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>With the massacre and possible additional consequences of the San Bernardino massacre and the pending Senate vote on Syrian War refugees, we have more than a little on our plate. Led me add the catastrophic
consequences of what has been termed a “world war” against Islamist extremists to the list as there are going calls for escalating the war against ISIS.<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Over the last couple of days I’ve been quite disturbed by the portent of articles by people who have long been our allies. In addition to the predictable madness from the militarist right, first came
Robert Reich’s piece that appeared to support what he termed the inevitable Third World War. Then, yesterday, came a piece by Stephen Cohen and Katrina Vanden Heuvel of The Nation in which their growing fears of the consequences of the new era of U.S. confrontation
with Russia led them to advocate a U.S.-Russian military alliance and war against ISIS.<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Fortunately Andrew Bacevich, who certainly knows war, has written the article the follows which confirms my worst fears of where such an escalation in the whack-a-mole wars will lead. It’s a bit long,
but it’s important, and I hope that it has some influence. Please take a look.<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>In dangerous times,<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Joseph<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/176076/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"></a><a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/176076/" target="_blank">http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/176076/</a><br>
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