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<div>Stephen, you've proven you're an anti-Semite, and that is all you care about, blaming Jews. I am shocked that there are so many of you floating around in Illinois. There is a hell of a difference between what the nation of Israel does with US support,
and criticism of the US for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians and your labeling all people who are Jewish as the "perpetrators" especially when there are so many people who are Jewish opposed to US support of Israel. <br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b> Peace-discuss <peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net> on behalf of Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 147, Issue 27</font>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31587"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_35048">Carl,</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31587"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31680">You're a professor. Is that all you can do is cry 'anti-Semitism'...</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31587"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_33979">It has an ever-increasing and ineffective hollow ring.</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31587"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_35049">The fervor against Zionists is completely consistent with the fervor to protect the Palestinians from Zionism.</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_31587"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_35050">True 'victims' would not perpetrate the crimes we see against the Palestinians.</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">On Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:06 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>
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<div id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_14332"><span>To Carl,</span></div>
<div id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_14332"><span id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_15064">You're trying to diminish and dilute the importance of 9/11 by elevating Bill Clinton's role in Iraq, but the argument doesn't hold water.</span></div>
<div id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_14332" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_15069">It was and is a very well kept secret that 500,000 children died under the Oil for Food scandal. No Patriot Act or DHS-like
structures were created from that horrific revelation. Falujah (DU mutations) has about the same status. It has never been compared to Pearl Harbor as 9/11 has. Madeline Allbright said it was necessary.</span></div>
<div id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_14332" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_15837">Clinton was an important part of the run-up to 9/11. His cabinet and administration was rife with J....ish persons (Cohen, Albright,
Ross, Emanuel, Perle...etc). Clinton's role in the explosion African-Americans imprisoned and the deregulation of banks is just now starting to come to light as Hillary comes under scrutiny.</span></div>
<div id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_14332" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv4983275188yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1460634144128_17819">Clinton was just a waterboy for the global elites invasion of the Middle East.</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">On Thursday, April 14, 2016 5:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net> wrote:<br clear="none">
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1. Re: Proposal (C. G. Estabrook)<br clear="none">
2. Re: Proposal (Roger Helbig)<br clear="none">
3. Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 147, Issue 26 (Stephen Francis)<br clear="none">
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<br clear="none">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br clear="none">
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Message: 1<br clear="none">
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 22:32:01 -0500<br clear="none">
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: "Brussel, Morton K" <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br clear="none">
Cc: Peace Discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7AD6FE24-A812-4C69-B63E-1656C8860E68@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">7AD6FE24-A812-4C69-B63E-1656C8860E68@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br clear="none">
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<br clear="none">
Certainly, it would be interesting to know if (e.g.) the US vice-president or the Mossad promoted the crimes of 9/11/2001 - I think it unlikely but not impossible.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
But the attacks themselves were counter-attacks in the long US war for domination of the Mideast and its energy resources. The Bush I and Clinton (I?) administrations had killed many (a half million children in Iraq alone, said Clinton's SoS).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
And 9/11 didn’t change much in that war. When the US invaded Iraq two years later - the greatest crime of the 21st century - 9/11 was not a factor in US propaganda, even though the Bush administration was facing the largest anti-war demonstrations in history,
because the US couldn't make a plausible case for an Iraq connection to 9/11; they had to lie about WMD instead.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
There’s little doubt about Israeli government Schadenfreude over 9/11. (In 2008, Netanyahu said, “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq. [The events] swung American public
opinion in our favor.”) But there is a lot of confusion about the relation of the US and Israeli governments. Here’s what seems to me a good summary: <<a href="https://chomsky.info/20060328/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">https://chomsky.info/20060328/</a>>.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
AWARE was founded to encourage opposition to decades of killing by the US government in support of the world economic hegemony of the US 1% - what George Kennan called (in 1949) “maintaining the disparity." It was clear that the crimes of 9/11 would be employed
in the propaganda for what became the subsequent Bush-Obama(-Clinton?) wars, so an accurate analysis of the context in which they occurred was and remains essential. But like the US wars in SE Asia, the ongoing wars in SW Asia are crimes, not mistakes - not
something the US was tricked into. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
—CGE<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:33 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below.
<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> -mkb<br clear="none">
>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> Quoting: When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands
upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who was
responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”.
<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?
<br clear="none">
>> A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events.
<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> —mkb<br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said,
we do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There
are other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands
that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the "truth
of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism"
in this statement. <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> What we, the American people, need to focus on is our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing what is
done in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands, keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.<br clear="none">
>>> From: Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br clear="none">
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM<br clear="none">
>>> To: Karen Medina<br clear="none">
>>> Cc: Peace Discuss<br clear="none">
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Regarding this statement:<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions
of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries). <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement
which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark. <br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support.
<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>> —mkb<br clear="none">
>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> correction:<br clear="none">
>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to
the root of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
>>>> 9/11 was a criminal attack on the US by Neocon Zionists to further theirs and Israel's goals in the Middle East and ... the 19 hijackers were patsies just as Oswald was a patsy in Kennedy's assassination. There are hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting
this, if you look for them. <br clear="none">
>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is
available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
>>>> This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:45 AM, Stephen Francis <<a href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to
the root of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is
available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
>>>> This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:17 AM, Karen Medina <<a href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">kmedina67@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> As an anti-war activist:<br clear="none">
>>>> * I am interested in stopping the atrocities that my country is perpetuating.
<br clear="none">
>>>> * I am not interested in provoking animosity toward people of other countries.
<br clear="none">
>>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions
of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries). <br clear="none">
>>>> * Working to change the current actions of the United States government is the sole responsibility of the citizens of the the United States: Classism, "Christian" extremism, exceptionalism, environmental destruction, and the mentality of "we are rich and
powerful so we should tell those other countries who is boss" are the message that our current decision-makers in the United States are hearing.
<br clear="none">
>>>> The anti-war voice needs to focus on these issues.<br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> <br clear="none">
>>>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none">
>>>> <a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none">
>>>> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none">
>> <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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------------------------------<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Message: 2<br clear="none">
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 01:29:25 -0700<br clear="none">
From: Roger Helbig <<a href="mailto:rwhelbig@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">rwhelbig@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br clear="none">
Cc: "Brussel, Morton K" <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>>, Peace Discuss<br clear="none">
<<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
Message-ID:<br clear="none">
<CALZ0NqWFq3A8BT6zbLU4e0gMHSx_i4a4p+fZQ8Y9s0-RA=<a href="mailto:rHjg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">rHjg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Half a million children - nonsense - and where is this alleged quote<br clear="none">
in something reputable instead of a on-line blog -<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Roger<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 8:32 PM, C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss<br clear="none">
<<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
> Certainly, it would be interesting to know if (e.g.) the US vice-president or the Mossad promoted the crimes of 9/11/2001 - I think it unlikely but not impossible.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> But the attacks themselves were counter-attacks in the long US war for domination of the Mideast and its energy resources. The Bush I and Clinton (I?) administrations had killed many (a half million children in Iraq alone, said Clinton's SoS).<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> And 9/11 didn’t change much in that war. When the US invaded Iraq two years later - the greatest crime of the 21st century - 9/11 was not a factor in US propaganda, even though the Bush administration was facing the largest anti-war demonstrations in history,
because the US couldn't make a plausible case for an Iraq connection to 9/11; they had to lie about WMD instead.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> There’s little doubt about Israeli government Schadenfreude over 9/11. (In 2008, Netanyahu said, “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq. [The events] swung American public
opinion in our favor.”) But there is a lot of confusion about the relation of the US and Israeli governments. Here’s what seems to me a good summary: <<a href="https://chomsky.info/20060328/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">https://chomsky.info/20060328/</a>>.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> AWARE was founded to encourage opposition to decades of killing by the US government in support of the world economic hegemony of the US 1% - what George Kennan called (in 1949) “maintaining the disparity." It was clear that the crimes of 9/11 would be employed
in the propaganda for what became the subsequent Bush-Obama(-Clinton?) wars, so an accurate analysis of the context in which they occurred was and remains essential. But like the US wars in SE Asia, the ongoing wars in SW Asia are crimes, not mistakes - not
something the US was tricked into.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> —CGE<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:33 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> -mkb<br clear="none">
>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>> Quoting: When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands
upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>> And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who
was responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”.<br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>> Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?<br clear="none">
>>> A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events.<br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>> —mkb<br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said,
we do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There
are other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands
that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the
"truth of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism"
in this statement.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> What we, the American people, need to focus on is our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing what is
done in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands, keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.<br clear="none">
>>>> From: Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br clear="none">
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM<br clear="none">
>>>> To: Karen Medina<br clear="none">
>>>> Cc: Peace Discuss<br clear="none">
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Regarding this statement:<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions
of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement
which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>> —mkb<br clear="none">
>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> correction:<br clear="none">
>>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to
the root of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
>>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
>>>>> 9/11 was a criminal attack on the US by Neocon Zionists to further theirs and Israel's goals in the Middle East and ... the 19 hijackers were patsies just as Oswald was a patsy in Kennedy's assassination. There are hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting
this, if you look for them.<br clear="none">
>>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it
is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
>>>>> This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:45 AM, Stephen Francis <<a href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to
the root of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
>>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
>>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it
is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
>>>>> This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:17 AM, Karen Medina <<a href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">kmedina67@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> As an anti-war activist:<br clear="none">
>>>>> * I am interested in stopping the atrocities that my country is perpetuating.<br clear="none">
>>>>> * I am not interested in provoking animosity toward people of other countries.<br clear="none">
>>>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions
of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).<br clear="none">
>>>>> * Working to change the current actions of the United States government is the sole responsibility of the citizens of the the United States: Classism, "Christian" extremism, exceptionalism, environmental destruction, and the mentality of "we are rich
and powerful so we should tell those other countries who is boss" are the message that our current decision-makers in the United States are hearing.<br clear="none">
>>>>> The anti-war voice needs to focus on these issues.<br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>><br clear="none">
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">
>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none">
>>>>> <a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none">
>>>>> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none">
>>><br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">
> Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none">
> <a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none">
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https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none">
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<br clear="none">
------------------------------<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Message: 3<br clear="none">
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:35:56 +0000 (UTC)<br clear="none">
From: Stephen Francis <<a href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: "<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"<br clear="none">
<<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 147, Issue 26<br clear="none">
Message-ID:<br clear="none">
<<a href="mailto:376447078.306905.1460630156287.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">376447078.306905.1460630156287.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
You (MKB) have confirmed my belief that I'm not going to appear on the TV show because of my "labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11", which is very similar in purpose to Carl Estabrook's argument that my beliefs are a 'distraction'.
...or others calling me a NeoNazi. You are all afraid of confronting what you suspect is a credible threat to your comfort zone.I've spent years compiling objective undisputable facts to counter these shallow attacks but consistently am unable to present them
locally. Again, that's ok. My work reaches thousands of people on all continents around the globe every day and I will just continue to persevere. The issues will not go away. History is an important predictor of the future.Here is another interesting case
that is very typical what I'm saying:Professor says Jews are behind 9/11 attacks and she's keeping her job<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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| | <br clear="none">
Professor says Jews are behind 9/11 attacks and she's keeping her job<br clear="none">
The president of ultra-liberal Oberlin College is standing by the professor who has been posting a slew of anti-... | |<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
|<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
|<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Professor Karega has been effectively shut down by the local Jewish academic and national news community. She has shuttered all her social media and has gone silent for fear of losing her job (she's not tenured). But Oberlin officials so far are defending her
academic rights and she has not been fired (yet). Her accusers obviously struggle with the concept of academic freedom which has a higher calling than political argument.<br clear="none">
At Florida Atlantic University, Professor James Tracy WAS fired for not correctly filling out time sheets. He had a wildly popular anti-establishment blog that contested the official 9/11, Sandy Hook and many other similar issues. I believe his case will have
a similar outcome as Professor Salaita. <br clear="none">
Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are winning because they are anti-Establishment and calling it like it is. In my opinion, the Peace-Discuss group is basically 'Establishment' ....as much as you would deny this, but I guess it all depends on where one draws
the line between Establishment and anti-Establishment. <br clear="none">
I would like to 'call it like it is' concerning 9/11 with undisputable objective facts, but am denied this opportunity for what I believe are irrational reasons.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:33 PM, "<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to<br clear="none">
<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br clear="none">
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br clear="none">
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You can reach the person managing the list at<br clear="none">
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br clear="none">
than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..."<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Today's Topics:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
1. Re: Proposal (Brussel, Morton K)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Message: 1<br clear="none">
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:33:17 +0000<br clear="none">
From: "Brussel, Morton K" <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br clear="none">
To: Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
Cc: Peace Discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F105B907-62FA-4BCB-A059-8F1B45BD7E54@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">F105B907-62FA-4BCB-A059-8F1B45BD7E54@illinois.edu</a>><br clear="none">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-mkb<br clear="none">
On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">brussel@illinois.edu</a>>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Quoting: When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon
thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who was
responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?<br clear="none">
A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
—mkb<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">karenaram@hotmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said, we
do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There are
other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands
that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the "truth
of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism"
in this statement.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
What we, the American people, need to focus on is our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing what is done
in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands, keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
________________________________<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
From: Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>>>
on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>><br clear="none">
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM<br clear="none">
To: Karen Medina<br clear="none">
Cc: Peace Discuss<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regarding this statement:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
* We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of
OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement
which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
—mkb<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
correction:<br clear="none">
Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to the root
of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
9/11 was a criminal attack on the US by Neocon Zionists to further theirs and Israel's goals in the Middle East and ... the 19 hijackers were patsies just as Oswald was a patsy in Kennedy's assassination. There are hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting
this, if you look for them.<br clear="none">
Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available
on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:45 AM, Stephen Francis <<a href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money' and analyzing who benefits, in getting to the root
of the system we rail against.<br clear="none">
Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.<br clear="none">
Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available
on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.<br clear="none">
This is REAL investigation.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:17 AM, Karen Medina <<a href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">kmedina67@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">kmedina67@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
As an anti-war activist:<br clear="none">
* I am interested in stopping the atrocities that my country is perpetuating.<br clear="none">
* I am not interested in provoking animosity toward people of other countries.<br clear="none">
* We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of
OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).<br clear="none">
* Working to change the current actions of the United States government is the sole responsibility of the citizens of the the United States: Classism, "Christian" extremism, exceptionalism, environmental destruction, and the mentality of "we are rich and powerful
so we should tell those other countries who is boss" are the message that our current decision-makers in the United States are hearing.<br clear="none">
The anti-war voice needs to focus on these issues.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none">
<a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br clear="none">
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none">
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