<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><head><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml><o:OfficeDocumentSettings><o:AllowPNG/><o:PixelsPerInch>96</o:PixelsPerInch></o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif]--></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61371">"<span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61723">AWARE has functioned by informal consensus rather than</span></div><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61724">votes, and no vote was taken on the proposal, <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62063"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62062">but there was</font></b></span><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62059"><font size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62058"><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61725"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61726">no consensus that AWARE should add our name to the list of</span><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61727"></font></b><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62156"><b><font size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61728">endorsers. </span></font></b></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62155"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62160"><font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62159"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62158"><font size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_63871">So, who, what was the process in declaring</font><font color="#cd232c" size="3" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_63676"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_63675"> "no consensus"....???... CGE comment</b></font></span></font></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62155"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62775"><font size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62774"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62773">Why not do a real survey.</span></font></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62155"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62963"><font size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62962"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62961">See below... It's completely anonymous, other than having to pick an observer (which in itself would be an interesting endeavor)</span></font></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62155"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif" size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_63244">I tried it.... was simple ... works well.</font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62155"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif" size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_63616">I'd bet $100 it'll never happen, but it's not a bad idea.</font></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61371"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61371"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61369"><a href="https://www.adoodle.org/index.php?action=showresults&survey=eee2320825dfed59ee03620a5d27af78" class="enhancr2_b77baac6-e1ea-6800-98eb-06560e021262" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61368">ADoodle.org - Anonymous Doodle</a></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61394"><br></div><div id="enhancr2_b77baac6-e1ea-6800-98eb-06560e021262" class="yahoo-link-enhancr-card yahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover ymail-preserve-class ymail-preserve-style img-overlay-selected" style="max-width:400px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" contenteditable="false" data-url="https://www.adoodle.org/index.php?action=showresults&survey=eee2320825dfed59ee03620a5d27af78" data-type="yenhancr" data-category="article" data-embed-url="" data-size="medium" dir="ltr"> <a href="https://www.adoodle.org/index.php?action=showresults&survey=eee2320825dfed59ee03620a5d27af78" style="text-decoration:none !important; color: #000 !important" class="yahoo-enhancr-cardlink" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61386"> <table class="card-wrapper" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="max-width:400px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61385"> <tbody id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61384"><tr id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61383"> <td width="400" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61382"> <table class="card-info" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%" style="background:#fff;max-width:400px;border:1px solid #e0e4e9;border-bottom:3px solid #000000;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61381"> <tbody id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61397"><tr id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61396"> <td style="vertical-align:top;padding:16px 0 16px 12px;"> </td> <td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:16px 12px;width:99%;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61395"> <h2 class="card-title" style="margin:0 0 4px 0;font-size:16px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;word-break:break-word;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_62666">ADoodle.org - Anonymous Doodle</h2> <div class="card-description" style="font-size:11px;line-height:15px;color:#999;word-break:break-word;">ADoodle.org organizes a simple and anonymous vote among collegues or friends. No one has to reveal his/her own c...</div> </td> <td class="card-share-container"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </a></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1474276157189_61380"><br></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, September 19, 2016 10:23 AM, "peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container">Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 152, Issue 127 (David Green)<br> 2. A highly recommended article. (Karen Aram)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 13:31:39 +0000 (UTC)<br>From: David Green <<a ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>To: Muhammad Yousuf <<a ymailto="mailto:xpman10@yahoo.com" href="mailto:xpman10@yahoo.com">xpman10@yahoo.com</a>>, "C. G. Estabrook"<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br>Cc: "<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 152, Issue 127<br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:1842706226.854500.1474291899999@mail.yahoo.com" href="mailto:1842706226.854500.1474291899999@mail.yahoo.com">1842706226.854500.1474291899999@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br><br>Hi Muhammad,<br><br>Even accepting the need for the focused nature of these demands, I find the following lethally problematic:<br><br>WE DEMAND that all on-campus sexual predators, especially those affiliated with the Greek Life system, face severe penalties for all forms of sexual violence.<br><br>It's particularly discordant because it is black men in particular, including black athletes, who have been falsely or problematically accused of sexual assault on college campuses. I've written about this:<br><br><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/24/rape-culture-the-hunting-ground-and-amy-goodman-a-critical-perspective/" target="_blank">http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/24/rape-culture-the-hunting-ground-and-amy-goodman-a-critical-perspective/</a><br><br>Moreover, the argument has been made that demands for mandatory sentencing of rapists will deter judges from exercising discretion in relation to non-violent drug offense sentencing that have been so destructive to black males and communities. The Marshall Project has weighed in on this, in opposition to the removal of Judge Persky in the Brock Allen Turner (Stanford) case.<br><br>And whatever the possible (but by no means clear) validity of singling out Greek Life as a structural source of rape culture, it's ill-advised to "especially" single out individuals on the basis of their affiliation to face "severe penalties." That's just tone deaf to basic legal rights.<br><br>This demand simply cannot be supported as written; unfortunately, it invalidates the entire exercise. I find no pleasure in saying this.<br><br>Best,<br><br>David<br><br><br><br><br><br>--------------------------------------------<br>On Mon, 9/19/16, C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br><br> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 152, Issue 127<br> To: "Muhammad Yousuf" <<a ymailto="mailto:xpman10@yahoo.com" href="mailto:xpman10@yahoo.com">xpman10@yahoo.com</a>><br> Cc: "<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>" <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br> Date: Monday, September 19, 2016, 12:11 AM<br> <br> Mr. Yousuf:<br> <br> AWARE ("Anti-war<br> Anti-racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana”) was asked to<br> consider supporting the 13 demands of the BSFR at UIUC. The<br> suggestion has been discussed by email and at the regular<br> Sunday night meeting of AWARE. Since its founding 15 years<br> ago, AWARE has functioned by informal consensus rather than<br> votes, and no vote was taken on the proposal, but there was<br> no consensus that AWARE should add our name to the list of<br> endorsers. <br> <br> The principal<br> reason was the specificity of AWARE’s remit as an antiwar<br> organization - and a corresponding reluctance to risk<br> distraction from it.<br> <br> Several members of AWARE were also disturbed by<br> the demands’ being couched in the terms of identity<br> politics. The rhetoric of ‘intersectionality’ - “being<br> attentive to the needs of various communities by<br> incorporating what each of those communities has explicitly<br> stated its needs are” - seems an inadequate attempt to put<br> the Humpty Dumpty of American liberalism back together<br> again, after it’s fallen off the wall of class politics<br> that was its base from the 1930s to the 1970s.<br> (Neoliberalism pushed it, of course.) <br> <br> Since the Obama administration<br> has enlarged the wars it was elected to end - and the new<br> administration will probably do more of the same - AWARE<br> welcomes support from BSFR and allied organizations in<br> opposing and ending the international crimes of the<br> government for which we are responsible - and which remains,<br> as ML King said long ago, “the greatest purveyor of<br> violence in the world today.” And we wish all those<br> organizations success with the truly progressive campaigns<br> they undertake in the university and the community.<br> <br> Regards, C. G. Estabrook <br> <br> <br> > On Sep 18, 2016, at<br> 11:04 PM, Muhammad Yousuf via Peace-discuss <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br> wrote:<br> > <br> > Hello<br> all,<br> > <br> > I think some<br> major clarification is needed. I've been the head of SJP<br> at UIUC for the past two years, and I'm also a co-author<br> of the 13th demand on the list. I want to be very clear that<br> these demands are fully endorsed by SJP, but AWARE's<br> consideration of them should not be conditional on that<br> fact. BSFR has been an incredibly strong organizing force on<br> campus since their formation last year, and have deep ties<br> to the local chapter of Black Lives Matter. These demands<br> are specifically aimed at galvanizing a movement on campus<br> to force the University to make changes which are necessary.<br> To answer what seems to be Carl's main concern, we as a<br> collective of organizations are completely anti-war and<br> anti-imperialist in all forms. The reason the demands do not<br> specifically mention this is because that is simply beyond<br> the purview of what we aim to accomplish, i.e., a<br> "transformed University". The changes which we<br> seek to implement on campus are reflective of those which we<br> think our society as a whole needs, but made to fit the<br> specific needs of this University and its students, staff,<br> and community members with intentional focus on the most<br> marginalized of these groups. I sincerely hope you don't<br> take us to be so foolish as to think we write off the role<br> the US has had in propagating violence both within and<br> outside this nations borders. Furthermore, SJP and the<br> demands themselves are explicitly in support of the BDS<br> movement and do not see this as a sort of "ethical<br> capitalism" but rather as a first step to eventually<br> deconstructing the militaristic structures which enable<br> countries like the United States and Israel to exact their<br> state-sanctioned terrorism around the world. <br> > <br> > I also view these<br> accusations of identity politicking as hasty and<br> disingenuous at best and seriously ignorant at worse. We are<br> being attentive to the needs of various communities by<br> incorporating what each of those communities has explicitly<br> stated its needs are. Of the 26 or so groups who have<br> officially signed on to the demands, representatives of at<br> least 10 of them were involved in the writing and research<br> process. While I hope AWARE will come to the conclusion of<br> endorsing the demands, we will not make room for the<br> incredible rudeness and "holier-than-thou"<br> rhetoric which this email thread is rife with. If you have<br> specific questions or concerns on the wording or content of<br> the demands, please communicate with BSFR (<a href="http://www.bsfruiuc.com/contact-us" target="_blank">http://www.bsfruiuc.com/contact-us</a>) or<br> SJP (<a ymailto="mailto:sjp.uiuc@gmail.com" href="mailto:sjp.uiuc@gmail.com">sjp.uiuc@gmail.com</a>)<br> directly rather than speculate on our behalves and on the<br> behalf of all the co-signed groups. <br> > <br> <br> > Muhammad Yousuf<br> ><br> <br> > <br> > […]<br> > <br> > <br> > On Sunday, September 18, 2016 2:04 PM,<br> "<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a>"<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a>><br> wrote:<br> > <br> > <br> > Send Peace-discuss mailing list<br> submissions to<br> > <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br> > <br> > To subscribe or<br> unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> > <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br> > or, via email, send a message with subject<br> or body 'help' to<br> > <br> <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-request@lists.chambana.net</a><br> > <br> > You can reach the<br> person managing the list at<br> > <br> <a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss-owner@lists.chambana.net</a><br> > <br> > When replying,<br> please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br> > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss<br> digest..."<br> > <br> ><br> <br> > Today's Topics:<br> > <br> > 1. Re:<br> [Peace] AWARE has been asked to consider supporting<br> the<br> > 13 demands<br> of the BSFR at UIUC (C. G. Estabrook)<br> ><br> <br> > <br> ><br> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > <br> > Message: 1<br> > Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 13:03:18 -0500<br> > From: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a ymailto="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br> > To: David Johnson <<a ymailto="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net" href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</a>><br> > Cc: peace <<a ymailto="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>>,<br> Peace-discuss List<br> > <br> <<a ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] AWARE<br> has been asked to consider<br> > <br> supporting the 13 demands of the BSFR at<br> UIUC<br> > Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:2F770B4C-7D53-4473-B519-9CC6F97956FD@newsfromneptune.com" href="mailto:2F770B4C-7D53-4473-B519-9CC6F97956FD@newsfromneptune.com">2F770B4C-7D53-4473-B519-9CC6F97956FD@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br> > Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset="utf-8"<br> > <br> > David—<br> > <br> > You suggest that "AWARE has gained a<br> reputation of being aloof from the community.” That’s<br> true if and only if the community is taken to be represented<br> by Democratic liberals from Tammy Duckworth thru Mark<br> Wicklund to Carol Ammons. AWARE rejects their objective<br> support for Bush-Obama-Clinton war-making (see e.g. <<a href="http://newsfromneptune.com/2015/07/14/memo-to-prairiegreens-local-democrat-legislators/" target="_blank">http://newsfromneptune.com/2015/07/14/memo-to-prairiegreens-local-democrat-legislators/</a><br> <<a href="http://newsfromneptune.com/2015/07/14/memo-to-prairiegreens-local-democrat-legislators/" target="_blank">http://newsfromneptune.com/2015/07/14/memo-to-prairiegreens-local-democrat-legislators/</a>>>).<br> > <br> > AWARE has claimed<br> from its inception to represent the real interests of our<br> neighbors in opposing the Bush-Obama government's<br> ongoing wars and the racism they inspire. <br> > <br> > AWARE has criticized<br> the disingenuous assertion of identity politics that the<br> issue is a free-floating problem of race relations,<br> unconnected to the economy and war - a view that serves to<br> defend neoliberal economics and neocon war, which have<br> characterized both administrations - and also probably the<br> next.<br> > <br> > The major<br> historical parallel is adduced by the historian Barbara<br> Fields:<br> > <br> ><br> "Probably a majority of American historians think of<br> slavery in the<br> > United States as<br> primarily a system of race relations—as though the<br> > chief business of slavery were the<br> production of white supremacy<br> > rather<br> than the production of cotton, sugar, rice and tobacco.<br> One<br> > historian has gone so far as to<br> call slavery ‘the ultimate segregator’.<br> > He does not ask why Europeans seeking the<br> ‘ultimate’ method of segregating<br> ><br> Africans would go to the trouble and expense of<br> transporting<br> > them across the ocean for<br> that purpose, when they could have achieved<br> > the same end so much more simply by<br> leaving the Africans in Africa.<br> > No one<br> dreams of analysing the struggle of the English against<br> the<br> > Irish as a problem in race<br> relations, even though the rationale that the<br> > English developed for suppressing the<br> ‘barbarous’ Irish later served<br> ><br> nearly word for word as a rationale for suppressing Africans<br> and<br> > indigenous American Indians. Nor<br> does anyone dream of analysing<br> > serfdom<br> in Russia as primarily a problem of race relations, even<br> > though the Russian nobility invented<br> fictions of their innate, natural<br> ><br> superiority over the serfs as preposterous as any devised by<br> American<br> > racists."<br> > <br> > The question is<br> whether endorsement of these demands advances AWARE’s<br> anti-war anti-racism program. It may, but I’m not<br> convinced it does; it may serve as a distraction. —CGE<br> > <br> > <br> > > On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:42 AM, David<br> Johnson <<a ymailto="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net" href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</a>><br> wrote:<br> > > <br> > ><br> Gus Wood is one of the founding members.<br> > > <br> > > They<br> organized last Fall 2015 <br> > > <br> > > They have repeatedly in their public<br> speeches ( the founding rally last Fall and the more<br> recent May Day rally ) have specifically spoke out against<br> capitalism, austerity, police militarization, and racism /<br> white supremacy ( and made a specific clear distinction<br> between white supremacy and being " anti-white "<br> ).<br> > > <br> > > Of<br> the individuals I know in the group who are the main<br> founders and organizers, they are all anti-war.<br> > > <br> > > Do we want<br> to split hairs here as to if they represent / advocate for<br> ALL of AWARE's demands or do we find common ground with<br> the fact that they share almost all of our values and goals.<br> Anti-authoritarian, anti racist and anti capitalist.<br> > > <br> > > After all,<br> part of AWARE's name is " anti-racism ".<br> > > <br> > > The<br> concern about supporting liberal identity politics group is<br> a legitimate concern, as those of you know me, know that I<br> hate liberal identity politics, and I wouldn't be asking<br> this of AWARE if I didn't think they were deserving of<br> support.<br> > > Also, for whatever<br> reason, AWARE has gained a reputation of being aloof from<br> the community. An endorsement of the black Students for<br> Revolution ( primarily for the reasons I stated above )<br> would help greatly in countering that misconception.<br> > > <br> > > Do what<br> you want, but in my humble opinion, this would be a good<br> move.<br> > > <br> > ><br> David Johnson<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> > > -----Original Message-----<br> > > From: Carl G. Estabrook [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>]<br> <br> > > Sent: Saturday, September 17,<br> 2016 8:56 AM<br> > > To: David Johnson<br> > > Cc: <a ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>;<br> <a ymailto="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>;<br> <a ymailto="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com">kmedina67@gmail.com</a>;<br> Ron Szoke; <a ymailto="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com" href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">stuartnlevy@gmail.com</a>;<br> <a ymailto="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu">salevy@illinois.edu</a><br> > > Subject: Re: [Peace] AWARE has been<br> asked to consider supporting the 13 demands of the BSFR at<br> UIUC<br> > > <br> > ><br> Who are they and what's their history?<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > Sent from my iPhone<br> > > <br> > >> On Sep<br> 17, 2016, at 8:35 AM, David Johnson <<a ymailto="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net" href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</a>><br> wrote:<br> > >> <br> ><br> >> Black Students for Revolution is NOT an Identity<br> Politics organization !<br> > >> <br> > >> I have been conversing and<br> interacting with many of the students in this organization<br> for some time now.<br> > >> <br> > >> They are unabashed<br> ANTI-CAPITALISTS !<br> > >> <br> > >> They have stated this publicly on<br> many occasions, in particular at the recent May Day rally on<br> campus.<br> > >> <br> ><br> >> The following demands in the list also indicates<br> that they are class <br> > >> based<br> ;<br> > >> <br> ><br> >>>> 1. WE DEMAND that UIUC immediately and<br> permanently halt tuition hikes.<br> ><br> >>>> 2. >> WE DEMAND that the racial and<br> ECONOMIC demographics of UIUC students, faculty and staff<br> reflect the racial and ECONOMIC demographics of Illinois by<br> 2032.<br> > >> 8. WE DEMAND a living<br> wage for all University employees and subcontracted workers<br> and that this rate be indexed for inflation.<br> > >>>> 9. WE DEMAND all<br> employees of UIUC have access to at least six months of paid<br> parental leave following the birth or adoption of a<br> child.<br> > >>>> 10. WE DEMAND<br> that UIUC cease and desist job outsourcing and hire directly<br> from underrepresented populations in Urbana-Champaign and<br> the surrounding communities.<br> ><br> >>>> 11. WE DEMAND that UIUC work towards<br> bridging the gap between this campus and the surrounding<br> Black community of Urbana-Champaign.<br> ><br> >>>> 12. WE DEMAND that UIUC implement<br> fair-chance admissions and employment policies for those<br> with past conviction records (Ban the Box).<br> > >>>> 13. WE DEMAND that UIUC<br> release an annual, easily-accessible, and comprehensive<br> report of all its investments and move to divest from<br> socially and politically negligent corporations.<br> > >> <br> > >><br> They of course advocate for African American rights, which<br> is understandable, but they do NOT just focus on that, like<br> an identity politics organization would. As you see they<br> have at it's core a class based economic agenda /<br> demands.<br> > >> <br> ><br> >> They also as an organization have worked and<br> supported the rights of the Palestinian people and the local<br> U of I organization " Students for Justice in<br> Palestine.<br> > >> <br> > >> This is called " CLASS based<br> intersectionality " as opposed to JUST<br> intersectionality with NO class base, which is merely a<br> smogasboard of identity politics groups.<br> > >> BIG difference !<br> > >> <br> > >><br> For the reasons stated above, I think we SHOULD endorse the<br> Black Students for Revolution.<br> > >><br> <br> > >> I hate identity politics , in<br> particular how it is used by neo-liberals to divide us, and<br> I would not advocate for any organization that was not class<br> based and anti-capitalist and anti war.<br> ><br> >> Remember, police militarization and brutality is<br> the counterpart of the policy of endless war.<br> > >> <br> > >><br> David Johnson<br> > >> <br> > >> <br> > >><br> -----Original Message-----<br> > >><br> From: Peace [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:peace-bounces@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-bounces@lists.chambana.net">peace-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>]<br> On Behalf Of <br> > >> Carl G.<br> Estabrook via Peace<br> > >> Sent:<br> Friday, September 16, 2016 10:35 PM<br> ><br> >> To: Peace-discuss List<br> ><br> >> Cc: Brussel, Morton K; Karen Medina; peace<br> > >> Subject: Re: [Peace] AWARE has<br> been asked to consider supporting the <br> ><br> >> 13 demands of the BSFR at UIUC<br> ><br> >> <br> > >> I think we should<br> try to have a serious discussion of this proposal, online<br> and perhaps in several meetings.<br> ><br> >> <br> > >> The central question<br> would seem to be, How does it comport with AWARE's<br> antiwar remit?<br> > >> <br> > >> But there are obviously other<br> important questions, e.g., What do we know of ‘Black<br> Students for Revolution’? <br> > >> A<br> severe critic might suggest that a similar list could be<br> circulated by ‘Some Students for Self-Promotion.’<br> > >> I’m old enough to remember<br> where the loudest voices for ‘militant action’ came from<br> during the Vietnam war: they were provocateurs.<br> > >> <br> > >><br> The list certainly raises (once again) questions of the<br> nature and provenance of identity politics (the mainstay of<br> the Clinton campaign).<br> > >> See<br> Adolph Reed's mordant description (expressed I admit in<br> somewhat clotted prose):<br> > >> <br> > >> "[Identity] politics is<br> not an alternative to class politics; it is a class<br> politics, the politics of the left-wing of neoliberalism. It<br> is the expression and active agency of a political order and<br> moral economy in which capitalist market forces are treated<br> as unassailable nature.<br> > >> <br> "An integral element of that moral economy is<br> displacement of the critique of the invidious outcomes<br> produced by capitalist class power onto equally naturalized<br> categories of ascriptive identity that sort us into groups<br> supposedly defined by what we essentially are rather than<br> what we do. As I have argued, following Walter Michaels and<br> others, within that moral economy a society in which 1% of<br> the population controlled 90% of the resources could be<br> just, provided that roughly 12% of the 1% were black, 12%<br> were Latino, 50% were women, and whatever the appropriate<br> proportions were LGBT people.<br> ><br> >> "It would be tough to imagine a normative<br> ideal that expresses more unambiguously the social position<br> of people who consider themselves candidates for inclusion<br> in, or at least significant staff positions in service to,<br> the ruling class” <<a href="http://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/" target="_blank">http://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/</a>>.<br> > >> <br> > >><br> It’s difficult to see how a serious critique of US<br> war-making can arise from identity politics. (Not enough<br> blacks and women among Special Forces killers?) It would<br> seem that US war-making arises from domestic and foreign<br> class conflicts; given that we’ve killed more than 20<br> million in 37 nations since WWII, we should be clear about<br> causes.<br> > >> <<a href="https://www.popularresistance.org/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-in-37-nations-since-wwii/" target="_blank">https://www.popularresistance.org/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-in-37-nations-since-wwii/</a>>.<br> > >> <br> > >><br> AWARE has seen as its task for 15 years to encourage<br> awareness of how and why the US government is the greatest<br> purveyor of violence in the world today.<br> > >> And to do that we must tell the<br> truth and shame the devil, as Hotspur says. <br> > >> <br> > >><br> I’m not convinced that endorsing these demands contributes<br> to that effort. —CGE<br> > >> <br> > >> <br> ><br> >>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:53 PM, Karen Medina<br> via Peace <<a ymailto="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>><br> wrote:<br> > >>>> <br> > >>>> Dear Peace-Discuss,<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> At the next AWARE meeting*, I will present<br> the 13 demands of the "Black Students for<br> Revolution" at UIUC for consideration. BSFRUIUC has<br> asked if AWARE will sign on to be a community<br> supporter/endorser of the demands.<br> ><br> >>>> <a href="http://www.bsfruiuc.com/our-demands" target="_blank">http://www.bsfruiuc.com/our-demands</a><br> > >>>> *(I might miss this<br> upcoming meeting, but the next week's meeting<br> > >>>> then)<br> > >>>> -- karen medina<br> > >>>><br> -------------------------------<br> ><br> >>>> 1. WE DEMAND that UIUC immediately and<br> permanently halt tuition hikes.<br> ><br> >>>> 2. <br> > >>>><br> WE DEMAND that the racial and economic demographics of UIUC<br> students, faculty and staff reflect the racial and economic<br> demographics of Illinois by 2032.<br> ><br> >>>> 3. <br> > >>>><br> WE DEMAND that all on-campus sexual predators, especially<br> those affiliated with the Greek Life system, face severe<br> penalties for all forms of sexual violence.<br> > >>>> 4. WE DEMAND that UIUC<br> makes a permanent commitment not to consolidate or combine<br> the LGBT Resource Center and Women’s Resource Center in<br> addition to the continued autonomy of all cultural centers<br> and ethnic studies programs.<br> ><br> >>>> 5. WE DEMAND that UIUC collect and track<br> gender and sexuality based demographics as an official<br> population.<br> > >>>> 6. WE<br> DEMAND that queer and trans students be given priority for<br> all university sponsored all-gendered housing options and<br> that genderqueer and trans students be offered these spaces<br> at a discounted rate corresponding with the less expensive<br> standard housing option.<br> ><br> >>>> 7. WE DEMAND that UIUC hire a truly<br> independent consultant to review <br> ><br> >>>> the salaries of all University employees in<br> order to detect and correct gender and race-based pay<br> inequality 8. WE DEMAND a living wage for all University<br> employees and subcontracted workers and that this rate be<br> indexed for inflation.<br> > >>>><br> 9. WE DEMAND all employees of UIUC have access to at least<br> six months of paid parental leave following the birth or<br> adoption of a child.<br> > >>>><br> 10. WE DEMAND that UIUC cease and desist job outsourcing and<br> hire directly from underrepresented populations in<br> Urbana-Champaign and the surrounding communities.<br> > >>>> 11. WE DEMAND that UIUC<br> work towards bridging the gap between this campus and the<br> surrounding Black community of Urbana-Champaign.<br> > >>>> 12. WE DEMAND that UIUC<br> implement fair-chance admissions and employment policies for<br> those with past conviction records (Ban the Box).<br> > >>>> 13. WE DEMAND that UIUC<br> release an annual, easily-accessible, and comprehensive<br> report of all its investments and move to divest from<br> socially and politically negligent corporations.<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> List of Endorsing Local Organizations<br> <br> > >>>> • Black<br> Students for Revolution<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • SJP - Students for Justice in Palestine<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • Planner’s Network<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • MEChA - Movimiento Estudiantil<br> Chicano de Aztlan<br> > >>>> <br> > >>>> • AASSCC - African<br> American Studies Scholars Cultural Committee<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • CUTES - Campus Union for Trans<br> Equality and Support<br> > >>>><br> <br> > >>>> • UMMA - United<br> Muslim & Minority Advocates<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • GEO - Graduate Employees Organization<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • MSU - Mixed Student Union<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • Women of Pride<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • BLM-CU (community) - Black Lives Matter - Champaign<br> Urbana<br> > >>>> <br> > >>>> • SACC - Students for<br> an Arab Cultural Center at Illinois<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • The Gharbzadegi Art Collective<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • Allies and Accomplices for Racial Justice<br> > >>>> <br> ><br> >>>> • Men of Impact*<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • Students Against Sexual Assault<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • My Sister’s Keeper*<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • STEM Boycotts the War Machine<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • NAISO - Native American and Indigenous Student<br> Organization<br> > >>>> <br> > >>>> • SECS - Students for<br> Environmental ConcernS<br> > >>>><br> <br> > >>>> • WORD - Writers<br> Organizing Realistic Dialect<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • ASA - Arab Student Association<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> • UIUC Beyond Coal<br> > >>>><br> <br> > >>>> • Black Rose/Rosa<br> Negra Central Illinois Chapter<br> ><br> >>>> <br> > >>>> <br> > >>>><br> _______________________________________________<br> > >>>> Peace mailing list<br> > >>>> <a ymailto="mailto:Peace@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:Peace@lists.chambana.net">Peace@lists.chambana.net</a><br> > >>>> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace</a><br> > >> <br> > >><br> _______________________________________________<br> > >> Peace mailing list<br> > >> <a ymailto="mailto:Peace@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:Peace@lists.chambana.net">Peace@lists.chambana.net</a><br> > >> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace</a><br> > >> <br> > > <br> > > <br> _______________________________________________<br> Peace-discuss mailing list<br> <a ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br> <a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br> <br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 14:22:35 +0000<br>From: Karen Aram <<a ymailto="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>><br>To: Peace-discuss List <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>, Peace<br> Discuss <<a ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br>Subject: [Peace-discuss] A highly recommended article.<br>Message-ID:<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:CY1PR15MB0347603250766C3AB144A2E0A3F40@CY1PR15MB0347.namprd15.prod.outlook.com" href="mailto:CY1PR15MB0347603250766C3AB144A2E0A3F40@CY1PR15MB0347.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">CY1PR15MB0347603250766C3AB144A2E0A3F40@CY1PR15MB0347.namprd15.prod.outlook.com</a>><br> <br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Freedom Rider: Standing with Syria<br>by BAR editor and senior columnist Margaret Kimberley<br>“There is only one question now: when will America tell its minions to stop fighting?”<br><br>American and NATO aggressions must be opposed wherever they surface in the world. That statement ought to be the starting point for anyone calling themselves left, progressive, or anti-war. Of course the aggressors always use a ruse to diminish resistance to their wars of terror. In Syria and elsewhere they claim to support freedom fighters, the moderate opposition and any other designation that helps hide imperialist intervention. They label their target as a tyrant, a butcher, or a modern day Hitler who commits unspeakable acts against his own populace. The need to silence opposition is obvious and creating the image of a monster is the most reliable means of securing that result.<br><br>The anti-war movement thus finds itself confused and rendered immobile by this predictable propaganda. It is all too easily manipulated into being at best ineffectual and at worst supporters of American state sponsored terror.<br><br>For five years the United States, NATO, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Qatar and Turkey have given arms and money to terrorist groups in an effort to topple Syrian president Bashar al-Assad. Some of those bad actors felt flush with success after overthrowing and killing Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. They had high hopes of picking off another secular Arab government. Fortunately, Assad was hard to defeat and the barbarians cannot storm the gates. Most importantly, Russia stopped giving lip service to Assad and finally provided military support to the Syrian government in 2015.<br><br>“American presidents, beginning with Jimmy Carter, have all used jihadists at opportune moments when they want regime change.”<br><br>The United States government is responsible for the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Syria. The so-called barrel bomb doesn’t kill more people than conventional weapons provided by the United States and its puppets. There would not be bombs of any kind, sieges, starving children, or refugees if the Obama administration had not given the green light to the rogues gallery.<br><br>Whatever their political beliefs or feelings about Assad, Syrians did not ask the United States to turn their country into a ruin. They don’t want ISIS to behead children, as they infamously did on camera. American presidents, beginning with Jimmy Carter, have all used jihadists at opportune moments when they want regime change. The name of the country under attack changes but the story ends with massive human suffering.<br><br>Instead of siding unequivocally with America’s victims some in the anti-war movement instead live in greater fear of being labeled “pro Assad.” Assad didn’t invade Iraq and kill one million people. George W. Bush did that. Assad did not give support to jihadists to destroy Libya, kill 50,000 people, ignite a race war and create another refugee crisis. Barack Obama did that. The list of human rights abuses carried out by the American government is a long one indeed. There is torture in the United States prison system, the largest in the world. American police are given tacit permission to kill three people every day. Yet the fear of being thought of as an Assad supporter is so powerful that it silences people and organizations who should be in the forefront of confronting their country domestically and internationally.<br><br>Of course American propaganda is ratcheted up at the very moment that sides must be chosen. Any discussion or debate regarding Syria’s political system was rendered moot as soon as the United States targeted that country for destruction. There is only one question now: when will America tell its minions to stop fighting?<br><br>“The fear of being thought of as an Assad supporter is so powerful that it silences people and organizations who should be in the forefront of confronting their country domestically and internationally.”<br><br>Obama didn’t start a proxy war with an expectation of losing, and Hillary Clinton makes clear her allegiance to regime change. The United States will only leave if Syria and its allies gain enough ground to force a retreat. They will call defeat something else at a negotiating table but Assad must win in order for justice and reconciliation to begin.<br><br>Focusing on Assad’s government and treatment of his people may seem like a reasonable thing to do. Most people who call themselves anti-war are serious in their concern for humanity. But the most basic human right, the right to survive, was taken from 400,000 people because the American president decided to add one more notch on his gun. Whether intended or not, criticism of the victimized government makes the case for further aggression.<br><br>The al-Nusra Front may change its name in a public relations effort, but it is still al Qaeda and still an ally of the United States. The unpredictable Donald Trump may not be able to explain that he spoke the truth when he accused Obama and Clinton of being ISIS supporters, but the anti-war movement should be able to explain without any problem. Cessations of hostilities are a sham meant to protect American assets whenever Assad is winning. If concern for the wellbeing of Syrians is a paramount concern, then the American anti-war movement must be united in condemning their own government without reservation or hesitation.<br><br>Margaret Kimberley's Freedom Rider column appears weekly in BAR, and is widely reprinted elsewhere. She maintains a frequently updated blog as well as athttp://freedomrider.blogspot.com. Ms. Kimberley lives in New York City, and can be reached via e-Mail at Margaret.Kimberley(at)BlackAgendaReport.com.<<a href="http://blackagendareport.com/" target="_blank">http://blackagendareport.com/</a>><br><br><<a href="http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/</a>><br>[<a href="https://external.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBFBaZaglt7Nhrz&w=158&h=158&url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-UeosV-GFvB0%2FV12KfoI2rLI%2FAAAAAAAAAWg%2FF_SMtnO8ApovuVwbBgXqFtVQrC-nWFYQACK4B%2Fs1600%2F13055501_10206274131078020_4151346819032523649_n.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&sx=0&sy=0&sw=180&sh=180" target="_blank">https://external.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBFBaZaglt7Nhrz&w=158&h=158&url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-UeosV-GFvB0%2FV12KfoI2rLI%2FAAAAAAAAAWg%2FF_SMtnO8ApovuVwbBgXqFtVQrC-nWFYQACK4B%2Fs1600%2F13055501_10206274131078020_4151346819032523649_n.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&sx=0&sy=0&sw=180&sh=180</a>]<br>Freedom Rider<<a href="http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffreedomrider.blogspot.com%2F&h=DAQGIa3WH&enc=AZOEioE3-Yj6GbHqmxT66vzwyH5PMQ_QjQWO2LThQzj4ofYAFAySUzIZjdCRMVjY0nfRd6ZsxR_IDNuHsiOh7q-ACs6nAfyzyD76o3-cWegqEo0ZWjr0EiWetnUMyRfHfMGbBFK0NHHUVxgKe1qOc9yNCWv5xnOWXPmsGUYFcbW1ejZ3xI3i-nF797W3YUT0M4E&s=1" target="_blank">http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffreedomrider.blogspot.com%2F&h=DAQGIa3WH&enc=AZOEioE3-Yj6GbHqmxT66vzwyH5PMQ_QjQWO2LThQzj4ofYAFAySUzIZjdCRMVjY0nfRd6ZsxR_IDNuHsiOh7q-ACs6nAfyzyD76o3-cWegqEo0ZWjr0EiWetnUMyRfHfMGbBFK0NHHUVxgKe1qOc9yNCWv5xnOWXPmsGUYFcbW1ejZ3xI3i-nF797W3YUT0M4E&s=1</a>><br>Copyright 2003 - 2016<br>FREEDOMRIDER.BLOGSPOT.COM<<a href="http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://freedomrider.blogspot.com</a>>|BY FREEDOM RIDER<br><<a href="http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/</a>><br>Like<<a href="https://www.facebook.com/karen.aram.1/posts/10210317986655255#" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/karen.aram.1/posts/10210317986655255#</a>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/attachments/20160919/303e5150/attachment.html" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/attachments/20160919/303e5150/attachment.html</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Peace-discuss mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 152, Issue 134<br>***********************************************<br><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>