<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yiv1195863624"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3520"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3519" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3518">In his strange way, Trump is not an ideologue; that is, he didn't attend Harvard Law or Business, or Yale Law, etc. His stated views, however often self-contradictory, reflect that.</div><div><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3726">Nevertheless, it seems possible or likely that Trump's appointments, as well as the actual responsibility of governing, will impose the elite consensus neoliberal (and perhaps neocon) perspective on Trump's choices, insofar as he is making the choices.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3727"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3728">Neoliberalism in particular--the country governed by Wall Street--is a powerful institutional force; I don't see the chops for challenging it among Trump and his appointees.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3799"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3800">But Clinton would have been assuming office, amidst rapturous IP, with a clear neoliberal/neocon agenda.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3729"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3807">DG</div> <div class="yiv1195863624qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482503512332_3521"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div><div class=".yiv1195863624yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv1195863624yqt0435248169" id="yiv1195863624yqt42115"><div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> On Friday, December 23, 2016 7:38 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv1195863624y_msg_container"><div id="yiv1195863624"><div><div class="yiv1195863624">I just wrote in another note to this list, "I’m not interested in supporting Trump but rather in understanding the current US political situation, which includes a thoroughly ideologized press that doesn’t hesitate to misrepresent Trump.”</div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">And we should still be talking about Hillary (and Obama) because they’re the leading representatives of the neoconservative and neoliberal positions that Trump has disavowed - so the overriding task for the political establishment right now is to infect the Trump administration with Obama-Clinton views and lock it into their current economic and military policies. </div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">There are worrying signs that they’re succeeding, but it’s not proven, even by the amazing insights into Trump’s character provided by establishment pundits. </div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">There has of course been far too little bashing of Obama - he has a talent for turning it away - given his appalling record of mystified mass murder. As you have noted, he wouldn’t fare well before a Nuremberg tribunal, on a charge of committing "the supreme international crime [war of aggression] differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”</div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">Clinton, as the leading representative of the Democratic party, threatened that and more. Her defeat doesn’t end it; I hope it’s at least a setback. </div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">We differ on Jill Stein. Like Jeff St. Clair, I see her as carrying water for the Democrats and attempting to alter the outcome of the election (as her campaign manager - a road-company Svengali? - attempted to do in 2004); you see her as a principled defender of voting rights, even though the Green party Steering Committee (and her v.p. nominee) refused to back her recounts, which were ostensibly for that purpose. She may be both.</div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624">—CGE</div><div class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1195863624yqt0109157666" id="yiv1195863624yqt79213"><div class="yiv1195863624"><i class="yiv1195863624"><br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></i><div><blockquote class="yiv1195863624" type="cite"><div class="yiv1195863624">On Dec 23, 2016, at 6:40 AM, Karen Aram <<a class="yiv1195863624" href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="yiv1195863624Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none"><div class="yiv1195863624">
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We are no longer talking about Hillary. In a few weeks we will no longer be talking about Obama, and yes there are concerns for what he may do over the coming weeks, but we are looking at a Trump Administration, which based upon choices he has made couldn’t
be worse. None of them are interested in peace. Peace only with Russia as a tactic and strategy for now. While that looks good, there are too many other concerns to be addressed.
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<div class="yiv1195863624">It’s not just about Trump being a racist, people are concerned about the choices he has made in respect to almost every Institution. In spite of his choices you continue to support him, while continuing to bash Obama.</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">You have spent weeks bashing Jill Stein, yet continuing to support Trump on every level</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">On Dec 22, 2016, at 13:49, Carl G. Estabrook <<a class="yiv1195863624" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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<b class="yiv1195863624">"The defensible heart of identity politics</b> is its commitment to opposing forms of discrimination like racism, sexism, and homophobia [and xenophobia].
<b class="yiv1195863624">I share that commitment.</b> <b class="yiv1195863624">But opposing discrimination today has no more to do with a left politics than do equally powerful ethical commitments against, say, violence or dishonesty.
</b>Why? Because <b class="yiv1195863624">the core of a left politics is its critique of and resistance to capitalism</b>—its commitment to decommodifying education, health care, and housing, and creating a more economically equal society.
<b class="yiv1195863624">Neither hostility to discrimination nor the accompanying enthusiasm for diversity makes the slightest contribution to accomplishing any of those goals.</b> Just the opposite, in fact. They function instead to provide inequality with a meritocratic
justification: If everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed, there’s no injustice when some people fail.” [W. B. Michaels, emphasis added]
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<div class="yiv1195863624">Our rulers recognize how hostility to discrimination and enthusiasm for diversity (both good things) can be used as a distraction from a critique of the economic base of society. HRC knew quite well what she was doing when she attacked Sanders’
New Deal economics by asking a crowd, “If we broke up the big banks tomorrow, would that end racism? Would that end sexism?” </div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">Glen Ford made the point early on: "Hillary Wants a Crusade to Defeat Trump’s 'Bigotry' – and Leave Her Bankers Alone."</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">And now when I argue that Trump seems superior to Obama (and Clinton) on war and the economy, I get the answer (even from ‘progressive’ [sic] Democrats) that that doesn’t matter - because Trump is a racist!</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">He may be, but that’s not the point: the point is that Obama has killed 6,000 people with drones, and Hillary would have started a war with Russia in Syria.</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">IP is a conscious distraction from opposition to neoliberalism (more inequality) and neoconservatism (more war).</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">—CGE</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">On Dec 22, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <<a class="yiv1195863624" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="yiv1195863624">Nit pick everything to death!!!!<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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I posted two lines of congratulations to those who brought about the Urbana Sanctuary City Resolution, and what do we get? Reams of emails “trivializing and criticizing the work and motives of those involved”. Trivializing the efforts of those from previous
years attempting to save people who were undocumented, as a result of US war and interventions.
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Have those who criticized the Sanctuary Movement, read the document, do they know the facts and details related to the law, have they heard the arguments presented by Prof. Boyle, or the issues in relation to what the Immigration Forum has been confronting?<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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We know that currently most immigrants are economic refugees, and the corporations are responsible for bringing them here as cheap, slave labor. However, as one socialist/labor activist told me, “I’m going to support your efforts, because I don’t blame the
“victims”. Maybe it only helps a few hundred people as compared to the millions we can save in the anti-war movement, but we here in Champaign/Urbana Il, are only a few grains of sand on the beach. It’s going to take tons of sand to accomplish our goals.<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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We should be organizing to resist war and poverty, but instead we alienate those who may now have awakened to that which is occurring. Yes, the Obama administration has been doing many of these things insidiously, while Trump announced in advance, like a “baseball
bat in the face” his intentions. All one has to do is look at his Cabinet appointments and others in his administration, Prof. Peter Navarro a China hater for one, to recognize where we’re headed.<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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Yes, Trump may back away from Russia, for now. The “powers that be” recognize they must proceed more rapidly with China, as time is on China’s side, and attempting to take on two major world powers at the same time, is not strategically viable. This isn’t brain
surgery, but it evaded the Obama administration who blindly just followed the advice of their warmongering Advisors, a misreading perhaps of Zbigniew? At least war criminal Kissinger has more sense than to foment wars that can’t be won, he sticks to the vulnerable
nations, who have been suffering terribly and will likely continue to do so. <br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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So, we have a few more weeks to watch what the Obama administration does in respect to Russia and Syria, which maybe a lot. Given power is coming from “the system” the duck is lame, he isn’t yet dead.
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We need to prepare for the Trump administration on all fronts, and stop this nitpicking disguised as “intellectual discourse”. Those of us in the anti-war movement need to stop feeling superior because we’re concerned with the “big picture” we need to stop
vilifying others for taking up Identity Issues, such as race, gender, etc., they are legitimate issues of concern. Criticize Prof. Dyson for making “race” the cause of all, with his articles in the NYT’s, thats fine. However, when our neighbors make an effort
to change things for the better, for some, maybe we need to take a break. If we are to accomplish anything we need to unite and change our system of capitalism which is responsible for all, and we’re not going to do it if we alienate others because “we are
right, and they are wrong”.<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none">
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<br class="yiv1195863624" clear="none"></div></div></div><br clear="none"><div class="yiv1195863624yqt0109157666" id="yiv1195863624yqt25200">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Peace-discuss mailing list<br clear="none"><a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br clear="none"><a href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br clear="none"></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </blockquote></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>