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<div class="">Carl</div>
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<div class="">Your statement: </div>
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<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">“What happened after 1975 was the construction of a vicious counter-narrative, neo-conservatism, to join the business community’s counter-attack on ’the Sixties,’ neoliberalism.” </div>
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Makes sense and I believe this is what happened based upon what I have read, and what you have said stated many times.</div>
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<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">I have also heard others discuss how many people turned to “personal pursuits” as a result of Edward Bernais propaganda. The turn on, navel gazing crowd, populating the west coast began a movement,
in the sixties that dulled the senses of many of those who “participated in political activism of the 60’s and 70’s”, not the serious organizers, who often were older and continued the struggle. Just as today, its difficult with only small turn outs. </div>
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<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Many of the groups such as the SWP regrouped under a new strategy, of taking individuals out of the cities, off of campuses, into more rural areas in order to organize unions, unfortunately many
as a result, dropped out rather than uproot their lives. </div>
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<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">This is why I find it difficult to believe that the masses demonstrating against US interventions in Latin America were larger than that which took place during the Vietnam war. </div>
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<div class="">On May 11, 2018, at 11:31, John W. via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Mildred O'brien <span dir="ltr" class="">
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I suppose John W. (whoever he is) represents mainstream rural America, uninformed and unread, gullible patriots.</div>
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<div class="">You replied only to me, Mildred/Midge, so you may as well just address me directly, whoever I am. Anything else would be rude and boorish. But here, I'll add us back in to the peace-discuss discussion.</div>
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<div class="">I don't "represent" mainstream rural America, except insofar as I lived and worked in that environment for 20 long years, and know what their interests are and how they think. I was a fish out of water, but it was water that I was forced to swim
in for all those years, and I really didn't know how to find fresher, purer water such as the kind that YOU plainly have been privileged to swim in.</div>
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He no doubt represents more of the population than informed activists,</div>
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<div class="">Again, I'm absolutely certain that that benighted population is far, far higher than the population of "informed activists", who as often as not can't even agree among themselves as to priorities, tactics, and strategies, and end up breaking into
splinter groups and driving away those who might have been allies.</div>
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<div class="">You see, I've now been an "informed activist" in THIS community for 20 long years, and I see how IT works too. I have what might be termed by Noam Chomsky a "basis for comparison".</div>
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but to say there was no opposition in those days is not accurate at least in this area.</div>
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<div class="">I at least didn't assert that in any way, shape, or form.</div>
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<span style="font-size:10pt" class="">Midge</span><br class="">
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-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: John W. via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>><br class="">
To: Karen Aram <<a href="mailto:karenaram@hotmail.com" target="_blank" class="">karenaram@hotmail.com</a>><br class="">
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" class="">brussel@illinois.edu</a>>; Peace-discuss List (<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>)
<<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>><br class="">
Sent: Fri, May 11, 2018 1:09 pm<br class="">
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump torpedoes Iran nuclear accord<br class="">
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<div class="m_7169748837622316242aolmail_gmail_quote">On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:41 AM, Karen Aram
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">It’s good to know that more Americans were protesting the USG Central American wars in the late 70’s and 80’s than even those protesting the Vietnam war in the 60”s. I had no idea, until you made the statement, below.
I have the excuse of being in Asia from Spring 1977 on through the next 22 to 28 years, with brief visits to the US at times. However, I’m wondering if most Americans even knew of the opposition at the time, due to limited media coverage?</div>
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<div class="">No, most Americans had no idea. Our "boys" weren't fighting and dying there, so most Americans outside of university communities had no particular awareness of what was going on in Central America, and no interest in finding out. There was very
little mainstream media coverage. Living in a small blue-collar Illinois town back then, I never did figure out the difference between the Sandinistas and the Contras, just as an example. And didn't really care. Nor did I understand what the whole Ollie
North scandal was all about. There was no internet in those days, remember, and I personally didn't even read a daily newspaper.</div>
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<div class="">I think academics and "progressives" and "revolutionaries" absolutely, dramatically overestimate the amount of support they have in middle America for their various causes.</div>
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<div class="">On May 9, 2018, at 15:32, Carl G. Estabrook <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" target="_blank" class="">galliher@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">You’re both forgetting the organizing in this country against the US government's Central American wars of the 1970s and ‘80s - arguably involving more Americans than the Vietnam protests of the ‘60s.
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<div class="">A decorated (indicted) hero of those wars, Oliver North, has just become head of the NRA.</div>
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<div class="">What happened after 1975 was the construction of a vicious counter-narrative, neo-conservatism, to join the business community's counter-attack on ’the Sixties,’ neoliberalism.</div>
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<div class="">Beginning in the Carter* administration, neolib and neocon lies dominated US politics. </div>
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<div class="">President Bush I celebrated the real success of the first Gulf War (1990-91): “...by God, we've kicked the Vietnam syndrome [ = reluctance of Americans to engage in neo-colonial wars, after Vietnam] once and for all!”</div>
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<div class="">* "At one point, President Jimmy Carter actually said that the U.S. owed no reparations to Vietnam because 'the destruction was mutual.’” </div>
<div class=""><<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=265&print=yes" target="_blank" class="">http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/a<wbr class="">rticle/?id=265&print=yes</a>></div>
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<div class="">On May 9, 2018, at 5:02 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="m_7169748837622316242aolmail_gmail_quote">On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Karen Aram
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Unfortunately, thats not what we did in the sixties. Once the Vietnam war was over, everyone went home, I left the country, many went to California to join communes, and navel gaze, while others got swept up into the
eighties, where greed was good. So here we are on the brink of nuclear war, and climate catastrophe, pick your poison. </div>
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<div class="">Right you are, Karen. And more or less my point. Every several decades there's a new generation of young idealists who are going to "straighten out" the mess their parents made. And always, always, always with the same result. Or, if not EXACTLY
the same result, close enough that "it rhymes", as Carl is fond of quoting.</div>
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