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<div class="">Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the government, and ruling
elite wins. There are historical examples proving this.</div>
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<div class=""> One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left. </div>
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<div class="">No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK did.</div>
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<div class="">Only civil resistance succeeds.</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <<a href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" class="">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they
<i class="">risk </i>punishment in order to defend us and fight fascism.
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<div class="">In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and action, we here on the Internet are
<i class="">thinking</i> about creating a just world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually
<i class="">doing </i>it.<br class="">
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</div>
<div class="">Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them from Nazis. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html" class="">http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html</a></div>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly monitor speech--has
long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">DG</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <<a href="mailto:cgestabrook@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">cgestabrook@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">It might mean
<div class="">(a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it is”; or</div>
<div class="">(b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”</div>
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<div class="">HAMLET, 2.2===========================<wbr class="">======================<br class="">
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. ... What news ?<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me <br class="">
question more in particular. What have you, my good friends, <br class="">
deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison <br class="">
hither?<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. Denmark's a prison. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and <br class="">
dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good <br class="">
or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for your <br class="">
mind.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a <br class="">
king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance of <br class="">
the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality that <br class="">
it is but a shadow's shadow. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_2644266350203013535m_-3714916925167024026Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>• Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd <br class="">
heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my <br class="">
fay, I cannot reason.</div>
</div>
<div class="">==============================<wbr class="">===========================</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class="">On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <<a href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr" class="">How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”<br class="">
<br class="">
Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US politics (h/t K. Aram):<br class="">
<br class="">
"Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were pretty much the same people.<br class="">
<br class="">
"Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.<br class="">
<br class="">
"Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.<br class="">
<br class="">
"This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a president who 'believes' in climate
change is more important than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think yourself irresistible' way.)<br class="">
<br class="">
"I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.” --Paula Densnow<br class="">
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