<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its war-making and -mongering.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks peace, but, unfortunately…"</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman <<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the unconstitutional and unauthorized war. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be forced to allow a vote. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate with the House Republican leadership. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401" class="">https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="gmail-clearfix gmail-content" style="margin-left:58px;margin-bottom:15px;color:rgb(20,23,26);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-permalink-header" style="display:flex;height:48px"><a class="gmail-js-nav gmail-account-group gmail-js-user-profile-link gmail-js-account-group gmail-js-action-profile" href="https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,24,179);text-decoration:none"><span class="gmail-FullNameGroup" style="display:flex;color:rgb(20,23,26);font-size:18px;line-height:24px;font-weight:bold;max-width:32ch"><strong class="gmail-u-textTruncate gmail-fullname gmail-show-popup-with-id" style="max-width:100%;word-break:break-all;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;word-wrap:normal">House Armed Services</strong><span class="gmail-UserBadges" style="font-size:0.9em"><span class="gmail-Icon gmail-Icon--verified" style="background-color:transparent;display:inline-block;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(29,161,242);padding-left:4px;font-size:1.2em"><span class="gmail-u-hiddenVisually" style="border:0px;font-size:1px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0px;width:1px">Verified account</span></span></span><span class="gmail-UserNameBreak"> </span></span><span class="gmail-username gmail-u-dir gmail-u-textTruncate" dir="ltr" style="max-width:100%;unicode-bidi:embed;font-size:14px;color:rgb(101,119,134);overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;word-wrap:normal;direction:ltr">@HASCDemocrats</span></a><div class="gmail-follow-bar"><div class="gmail-user-actions gmail-not-following gmail-not-muting gmail-btn-group" style="display:flex"><span class="gmail-user-actions-follow-button gmail-follow-button gmail-js-follow-btn"><button type="button" class="gmail-EdgeButton--medium gmail-EdgeButton--secondary gmail-button-text gmail-EdgeButton gmail-follow-text" style="color:rgb(0,24,179);font-family:inherit;font-size:14px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:bold;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:20px;margin:0px;overflow:visible;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);border:1px solid rgb(0,24,179);padding:6px 16px;border-top-left-radius:100px;border-top-right-radius:100px;border-bottom-right-radius:100px;border-bottom-left-radius:100px;white-space:nowrap;display:block;min-width:105px"><span style="vertical-align:middle" class="">Follow</span><span class="gmail-u-hiddenVisually" style="vertical-align:middle;border:0px;font-size:1px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0px;width:1px">Follow <span class="gmail-username gmail-u-dir gmail-u-textTruncate" dir="ltr" style="max-width:100%;unicode-bidi:embed;font-size:14px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;word-wrap:normal;direction:ltr;text-align:left">@<span style="font-weight:normal" class="">HASCDemocrats</span></span></span></button></span></div></div><div class="gmail-js-more-ProfileTweet-actions gmail-ProfileTweet-action gmail-ProfileTweet-action--more" style="display:inline-block;min-width:inherit"><div class="gmail-dropdown"><button class="gmail-js-dropdown-toggle gmail-ProfileTweet-actionButton gmail-u-textUserColorHover gmail-dropdown-toggle" type="button" style="color:rgb(101,119,134);font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1;margin:0px 0px 0px 9px;overflow:visible;background-color:transparent;border:0px;padding-right:9px;padding-bottom:2px;padding-left:9px"><div class="gmail-js-tooltip gmail-IconContainer" title="More" style="display:inline-block;line-height:0;vertical-align:middle"><span class="gmail-Icon--caretDownLight gmail-Icon--small gmail-Icon" style="background-color:transparent;display:inline-block;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:15px"></span><span class="gmail-u-hiddenVisually" style="border:0px;font-size:1px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0px;width:1px">More</span></div></button></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail-js-tweet-text-container" style="color:rgb(20,23,26);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 27px; line-height: 32px; white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word; letter-spacing: 0.01em;" class="">.<a href="https://twitter.com/RepAdamSmith" class="gmail-twitter-atreply gmail-pretty-link gmail-js-nav" dir="ltr" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,24,179);text-decoration:none">@RepAdamSmith</a>: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I am working with <a href="https://twitter.com/RepRoKhanna" class="gmail-twitter-atreply gmail-pretty-link gmail-js-nav" dir="ltr" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,24,179);text-decoration:none">@RepRoKhanna</a> on a bill to stop us from blindly supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yemen?src=hash" class="gmail-pretty-link gmail-twitter-hashtag gmail-js-nav" dir="ltr" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,24,179);text-decoration:none">#Yemen</a>.</div></div><div class="gmail-js-tweet-details-fixer gmail-tweet-details-fixer" style="color:rgb(20,23,26);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-client-and-actions" style="clear:both;margin-top:10px"><span class="gmail-metadata" style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(101,119,134);overflow:hidden;line-height:24px">1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018</span></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You can encourage support of this effort here:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them to Follow Through<br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through" class="">https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Robert Naiman<br class="">Policy Director<br class="">Just Foreign Policy<br class=""><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank" class="">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><div class=""><span style="text-align:left" class="">(202) 448-2898 x1</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not wanted to commit a horrible crime?<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration. </div><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-1407722487373920748Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't, you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win, to the extent that you are able. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-1407722487373920748gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Robert Naiman<br class="">Policy Director<br class="">Just Foreign Policy<br class=""><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank" class="">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><div class=""><span style="text-align:left" class="">(202) 448-2898 x1</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class="">Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?<br class=""><br class=""><div id="m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383AppleMailSignature" class="">Sent from my iPhone</div><div class=""><div class="m_-1407722487373920748h5"><div class=""><br class="">On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman <<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides." </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Robert Naiman<br class="">Policy Director<br class="">Just Foreign Policy<br class=""><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank" class="">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><div class=""><span style="text-align:left" class="">(202) 448-2898 x1</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;font-size:10pt" class="">There were people in the American government that argued that attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast. We could oppose the attack without supporting them
or their vicious politics.
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<div id="m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383m_8355666935557577538divRpF18079" style="direction:ltr" class=""><font face="Tahoma" size="2" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Peace-discuss [<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.c<wbr class="">hambana.net</a>] on behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss [<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> C G Estabrook<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> Peace-discuss List<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal<br class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning. Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't
require being particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is like other governments.
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<div class="">This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view that what governments will do is always reducible to or understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest, and
these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral consequences. </div>
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<div class="">So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree
to the UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the U.S. empire crash and burn. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Robert Naiman<br class="">
Policy Director<br class="">
Just Foreign Policy<br class="">
<a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class="">
<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class="">
<div class=""><span style="text-align:left" class="">(202) 448-2898 x1</span></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
<span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean toward the side that serves their interests”?
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<div class="">In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those of the majority, here and abroad.</div>
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<div class="">On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>> wrote:</div>
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always lean toward the side that serves their interests.”</span></div>
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