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<div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div dir="auto">When the anti-war movement fractures itself over which of the two main political parties are supposedly less war-like, I am reminded of mice deciding which mousetrap has the better cheese, while the cat looks smugly on from above, ready to pounce. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div id="LGEmailSignatureBox" dir="auto"><div dir="auto" font-size:9pt;"=""><i>Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone</i></div></div></div><div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div id="LGEmailHeader" dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">------ Original message------</div><div dir="auto"><b>From: </b>Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss<peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></div><div dir="auto"><b>Date: </b>Thu, Jul 12, 2018 6:31 PM</div><div dir="auto"><b>To: </b>C G Estabrook;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Cc: </b>Peace-discuss List;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran abou
t prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal</div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div dir="ltr">The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my nose. <div><br></div><div>The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people are supposed to care about that. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Robert Naiman<br>Policy Director<br>Just Foreign Policy<br><a href="ht
tp://www.justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><div><span style="text-align:left"><a href="tel:(202) 448-2898">(202) 448-2898</a> x1</span></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not wanted to commit a horrible crime?<div><br></div><div>Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration. </div><div><div class="m_5250275655660760111h5"><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_5250275655660760111m_-140772248737
3920748Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr">Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?<div><br></div><div>It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't, you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win, to the extent that you are able. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_5250275655660760111m_-1407722487373920748gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr
"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Robert Naiman<br>Policy Director<br>Just Foreign Policy<br><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><div><span style="text-align:left"><a href="tel:(202) 448-2898">(202) 448-2898</a> x1</span></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?<br><br><div id="m_5250275655660760111m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div class="m_5250275655660760111m_-1407722487373920748h5"><div><br>On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman <<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so many Russian Jews had supported the Commu
nists. He said: "There were two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides." </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_5250275655660760111m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Robert Naiman<br>Policy Director<br>Just Foreign Policy<br><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br><div><span
style="text-align:left"><a href="tel:(202) 448-2898">(202) 448-2898</a> x1</span></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">There were people in the American government that argued that attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast. We could oppose the attack without supporting them
or their vicious politics.
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<div id="m_5250275655660760111m_-1407722487373920748m_-1128383933011525383m_8355666935557577538divRpF18079" style=""><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Peace-discuss [<a href="mailto:peace-discuss-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss-bounces@lists.c<wbr>hambana.net</a>] on behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss [<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> C G Estabrook<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peace-discuss List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal<br>
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<div dir="ltr">You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning. Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't
require being particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is like other governments.
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<div>This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view that what governments will do is always reducible to or understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest, and
these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral consequences. </div>
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<div>So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree
to the UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the U.S. empire crash and burn. </div>
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<div dir="ltr">Robert Naiman<br>
Policy Director<br>
Just Foreign Policy<br>
<a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean toward the side that serves their interests”?
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<div>In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those of the majority, here and abroad.</div>
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<div>On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr>net</a>> wrote:</div>
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always lean toward the side that serves their interests.”</span></div>
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