<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Quickening is a "old wives tale" notion
that the baby comes to life when the first kick is felt.<br>
<br>
Quicken is an old English word that means to give life.<br>
<br>
The quick and the dead. Ecce homo. He was cut to the quick.<br>
<br>
The zygote may be sessile but is certainly quick in the sense that
there is life in it.<br>
<br>
Even bacteria have only once cell but they respond to stimuli and
have<br>
genes that can be turned on and off and display a sort of
intelligence and<br>
irritability. They are quick. Fast, too.<br>
<br>
It is impossible to make a coherent biological argument in favour
of killing the <br>
human life form that results from conception.<br>
<br>
A reasonable society constructs a system for directing and
supporting conception and its results.<br>
There is indeed something holy about it. The sanctity of life.<br>
<br>
The matter of the sanctity of life transcends the right of a woman
over her body. <br>
There is no such thing as the right of a woman to kill her child
before or after birth <br>
because she would violate the unalienable rights of another human
(be-ing).<br>
<br>
Punishment?<br>
Mercy and understanding and healing rejoice against judgment.<br>
<br>
There is a difference between accidentally backing over the
neighbor's dog and<br>
corralling all the strays in the neighborhood and dispatching them
on the <br>
pavement with a steamroller, George Tiller-style.<br>
<br>
Still it's no reason to set up a the moral equivalent of a <br>
sausage grinder at the edge of town for <br>
the disposal of society's non-eugenic culls.<br>
How mulch do you care?<br>
What does pain have to do with it at all?<br>
<br>
Dred Scott vs Sanford. There's established case law for ya.<br>
<br>
Dehumanization of the victim.<br>
<br>
Job (Jobab) lamented cynically that he would have been better<br>
off if his mama had kept her knees closer together for his
contraception.<br>
It turned out that he was not right about that after all.<br>
<br>
C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8E88D985-85A6-4772-904A-072F502C55AF@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
And I dispute the claim that my granddaughter was not a human
being a month (or two, or three…) before she was born.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So we’re debating when this magical transition to
humanness occurs (‘quickening," e.g.)? The ability to feel pain?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">But there is one point when the transition to
humanness occurs, and it’s not magical but quite natural:
conception.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 6, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Robert Naiman <<a
href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">I dispute the claim that a
fertilized human egg is a human being at the moment of
conception.
<div class="gmail_extra"> </div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Do you eat meat and cheese? Do
you drink milk? </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Which do you think has a
greater capacity to experience pain: a cow or a
zygote? </div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class=""><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:29
AM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr"
class=""><<a
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"
class="">There is more to be said about identity
politics - among other things, it’s a cover for
neoliberalism - but your incontrovertible first
line recalls other recent discussions on this
list.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To paraphrase - “Unborn children
are human beings, aren't they? Does anyone
here dispute that unborn children are human
beings?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">—CGE</div>
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 6, 2018, at 5:59
AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
<<a
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr
class="">net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_8493910759486856073Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Gay people
are human beings, aren't they?
Does anyone here dispute that gay
people are human beings?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If gay people are
human beings, and if human
beings have rights, then gay
people have rights, by virtue of
the fact that they are human
beings. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we claim that our
society is based, among other
things, on "Equal justice under
law" - this phrase is <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_justice_under_law"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">engraved
on the front of the United
States Supreme Court</a> -
then if "straight" people have
the right to get married to each
other and derive legal benefits
from that, gay people also have
that right.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If a gay person, or
if a straight person who
believes that gay people have
equal rights by virtue of the
fact that they are human beings,
advocates that a politician
defend the rights of gay people
to marry, that person is only
doing what we would normally
expect people to do in a society
which claims to practice "equal
justice under law." </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have come to
strongly dislike the phrase
"identity politics." It seems to
me to conflate two very
different things. One is:
advocating for the equal rights
and equal participation of
people who have been excluded
from rights and participation
based on identity
characteristics. And the other
is: doing that at the expense of
advocating for economic justice;
putting identity politics at the
top of the marquee, to the
exclusion of highlighting
economic justice demands. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There's no intrinsic
reason why identity politics in
the first sense has to be in
existential conflict with
advocacy for economic justice.
Indeed, it seems to me that one
of the historic tasks of the
Left has always been to
integrate the defense of
identity rights into an economic
justice framework, so that these
things will be perceived to be
complementary, not
contradictory. The world in
which I want to live is one in
which gay people, even gay
people who are not workers,
defend the right of workers to
organize, both because it is
ethically right and because they
correctly see the organization
of unions as an important way
that gay people defend their
rights, because unions are
defending the right of gay
workers to be gay. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Rabbi Hillel said:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">"If I am not for
myself, who will be for me?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If I am only for
myself, what am I?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If not now, when?"</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun,
Aug 5, 2018 at 8:35 PM, e.
wayne johnson via
Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr"
class=""><<a
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr
class="">net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">It
is interesting how RT is so
often the voice of truth
crying in the wilderness.<br
class="">
<br class="">
It is also interesting that
some of the "identities" are
actually <br class="">
mental illnesses and
psychopathologies.<br
class="">
The Canadian Alphabet soup
LGBTQRTS123ZOMFGWTF<br
class="">
is the ridiculous extreme
that some of these cultural
fads<br class="">
have to go to before people
get weary of them.<br
class="">
<br class="">
It is also interesting that
what can be dismissed as
simple fad can have such<br
class="">
far reaching negative
consequences.<br class="">
<br class="">
Fags really do doom
nations. <br class="">
<span class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
> -------Original
Message-------<br class="">
> From: Brussel,
Morton K via Peace-discuss
<<a
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr
class="">net</a>><br
class="">
> To: Peace Discuss
<<a
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br
class="">
> Cc: Brussel, Morton
K <<a
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br
class="">
> Subject:
[Peace-discuss] Identity
politics<br class="">
> Sent: Aug 06 '18
02:31<br class="">
> <br class="">
> I fond this a stong
analysis, although perhaps
the author<br class="">
> overemphasizes the
political disorientation
of those<br class="">
> promulgating/doing
identity politics.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
</span>> _HOW IDENTITY
POLITICS MAKES THE LEFT LOSE
ITS COLLECTIVE IDENTITY_<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> <a
href="https://www.rt.com/OP-ED/434924-LEFT-POLICY-IDENTITY-DIVIDED/"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">HTTPS://WWW.RT.COM/OP-ED/43492<wbr
class="">4-LEFT-POLICY-IDENTITY-DIVIDED<wbr
class="">/</a><br
class="">
> <br class="">
>
-------------------------<br
class="">
>
______________________________<wbr
class="">_________________<br
class="">
> Peace-discuss mailing
list<br class="">
> <a
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.n<wbr
class="">et</a><br
class="">
> <a
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/mai<wbr
class="">lman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br
class="">
> <br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br
class="">
Peace-discuss mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr
class="">net</a><br class="">
<a
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/<wbr
class="">mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>