<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style='line-height:1.4'>no one can deny that the zygote biologically alive. that it.cannot live outside.the womb real or mechanical cuts no ice. a tomato plant also cannot live out of the soil matrix. cant say it.is not.alive.<br/><br/>if the subhumanized fodder of war aint alive there is no reason.to.kill. them. likewise the only reason to terminate the child is that its life now subhumanized is a threat.<br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/></div>On 2018-08-07 03:38 , <a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss</a> Wrote: <br><br><blockquote id='ntes-andriodmail-quote' style="margin:0px;padding-left:1ex;border-left:#ccc 1px solid">To paraphrase, “ending a human life equals murder and therefore must be absolutely prohibited in all cases, including rape, incest, and threat to the mother's life.” I assume that’s your position.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A human zygote is a cell formed by a fertilization event between two human gametes (from Greek γαμετή gamete from gamein "to marry”). The zygote's genome is a combination of the DNA in each gamete, and contains all of the genetic information necessary to form a new individual. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Assuming one must err on the side of caution where human life is concerned, it seems hard to deny that a human zygote is a human life. QED.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Robert Naiman <<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">If a zygote were a human, it would follow that aborting a zygote equals murder and therefore must be absolutely prohibited in all cases, including rape, incest, and threat to the mother's life. Is that your position? <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Robert Naiman<br class="">Policy Director<br class="">Just Foreign Policy<br class=""><a href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/" target="_blank" class="">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br class=""><div class=""><span style="text-align:left" class="">(202) 448-2898 x1</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 10:09 AM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">And I dispute the claim that my granddaughter was not a human being a month (or two, or three…) before she was born.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So we’re debating when this magical transition to humanness occurs (‘quickening," e.g.)? The ability to feel pain?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But there is one point when the transition to humanness occurs, and it’s not magical but quite natural: conception.</div><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 6, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Robert Naiman <<a href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank" class="">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7245708951291930341Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I dispute the claim that a fertilized human egg is a human being at the moment of conception. <div class="gmail_extra"> </div><div class="gmail_extra">Do you eat meat and cheese? Do you drink milk? </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra">Which do you think has a greater capacity to experience pain: a cow or a zygote? </div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class=""><div class="m_-7245708951291930341gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:29 AM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">There is more to be said about identity politics - among other things, it’s a cover for neoliberalism - but your incontrovertible first line recalls other recent discussions on this list.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To paraphrase - “Unborn children are human beings, aren't they? Does anyone here dispute that unborn children are human beings?”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">—CGE</div><div class=""><div class="m_-7245708951291930341h5"><div class=""> <br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 6, 2018, at 5:59 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7245708951291930341m_8493910759486856073Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Gay people are human beings, aren't they? Does anyone here dispute that gay people are human beings? <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If gay people are human beings, and if human beings have rights, then gay people have rights, by virtue of the fact that they are human beings. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If we claim that our society is based, among other things, on "Equal justice under law" - this phrase is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_justice_under_law" target="_blank" class="">engraved on the front of the United States Supreme Court</a> - then if "straight" people have the right to get married to each other and derive legal benefits from that, gay people also have that right.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If a gay person, or if a straight person who believes that gay people have equal rights by virtue of the fact that they are human beings, advocates that a politician defend the rights of gay people to marry, that person is only doing what we would normally expect people to do in a society which claims to practice "equal justice under law." </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have come to strongly dislike the phrase "identity politics." It seems to me to conflate two very different things. One is: advocating for the equal rights and equal participation of people who have been excluded from rights and participation based on identity characteristics. And the other is: doing that at the expense of advocating for economic justice; putting identity politics at the top of the marquee, to the exclusion of highlighting economic justice demands. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There's no intrinsic reason why identity politics in the first sense has to be in existential conflict with advocacy for economic justice. Indeed, it seems to me that one of the historic tasks of the Left has always been to integrate the defense of identity rights into an economic justice framework, so that these things will be perceived to be complementary, not contradictory. The world in which I want to live is one in which gay people, even gay people who are not workers, defend the right of workers to organize, both because it is ethically right and because they correctly see the organization of unions as an important way that gay people defend their rights, because unions are defending the right of gay workers to be gay. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Rabbi Hillel said:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"If I am not for myself, who will be for me?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If I am only for myself, what am I?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If not now, when?"</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:35 PM, e. wayne johnson via Peace-discuss <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">It is interesting how RT is so often the voice of truth crying in the wilderness.<br class="">
<br class="">
It is also interesting that some of the "identities" are actually <br class="">
mental illnesses and psychopathologies.<br class="">
The Canadian Alphabet soup LGBTQRTS123ZOMFGWTF<br class="">
is the ridiculous extreme that some of these cultural fads<br class="">
have to go to before people get weary of them.<br class="">
<br class="">
It is also interesting that what can be dismissed as simple fad can have such<br class="">
far reaching negative consequences.<br class="">
<br class="">
Fags really do doom nations. <br class="">
<span class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
> -------Original Message-------<br class="">
> From: Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<wbr class="">net</a>><br class="">
> To: Peace Discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank" class="">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>><br class="">
> Cc: Brussel, Morton K <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank" class="">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br class="">
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Identity politics<br class="">
> Sent: Aug 06 '18 02:31<br class="">
> <br class="">
> I fond this a stong analysis, although perhaps the author<br class="">
> overemphasizes the political disorientation of those<br class="">
> promulgating/doing identity politics.<br class="">
> <br class="">
</span>> _HOW IDENTITY POLITICS MAKES THE LEFT LOSE ITS COLLECTIVE IDENTITY_<br class="">
> <br class="">
> <a href="https://www.rt.com/OP-ED/434924-LEFT-POLICY-IDENTITY-DIVIDED/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">HTTPS://WWW.RT.COM/OP-ED/43492<wbr class="">4-LEFT-POLICY-IDENTITY-DIVIDED<wbr class="">/</a><br class="">
> <br class="">
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