<div dir="ltr">Here is the discourse that I was referring to regarding Timothy McViegh:<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.marxmail.org/msg160148.html">http://www.marxmail.org/msg160148.html</a> </div><div><br></div><div>Which refers back to Richard Seymour's patreon blog post:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/fascist-28942843">https://www.patreon.com/posts/fascist-28942843</a></div><div><br></div><div>Here is the comment by <b>Amith Gupta </b>that I read on the program:</div><div><ul style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium">I disagree with Michael's reading of McVeigh. There was very little<br>indication that he was motivated by the same factors as the El Paso shooter<br>or other neo-Nazi terrorists (i.e. belief in a conspiratorial genocide<br>against white people). The only indications that I could find were the fact<br>that he had the Turner Diaries in his possession; that is unsurprising,<br>given the plot of the book is about citizens carrying out an armed<br>insurgency against the government, albeit they are all racists. I recall<br>reading (though I can't find it for the life of me) how McVeigh thought of<br>the book as a useful guide for carrying out terrorist plots against the<br>government but rejected its race-related messaging. Likewise, he apparently<br>bought a "White Power" shirt from the KKK during a protest and<br>counter-protest when he was in the military, but from what I could find it<br>is little more than shirt that says "Sic Semper Tyrannis" which a photo of<br>Lincoln (as I'm sure you all know, those were the words that Booth stated<br>before assassinating Lincoln). Given the lack of involvement with active<br>Nazi militias at any point in his life and complete lack of any "race<br>war"-related commentary in any statements he made prior to or after the<br>bombing, I find it a stretch to throw him in with these other guys, though<br>he clearly had some sort of flirtations with other people who had those<br>views.<br><br>The letters he wrote prior to his execution and other statements he made<br>during his life would indicate that while he was very much a right-winger,<br>the primary factors behind his violence were being desensitized to mass<br>killings during his military service in Iraq and watching the heavily<br>militarized response of the U.S. government to various groups in the United<br>States, including Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians. Those responses<br>involved killing many people and, at least in the Weaver case, involved an<br>ultimately successful entrapment defense (i.e. Weaver was acquitted).<br>Weaver and his family were actually white nationalists but the outrage<br>about the attack on that family was hardly limited to people who share<br>their ideological views; indeed, it was an absolutely ridiculous use of<br>force against a guy they had tried to get on a manufactured gun charge<br>knowing that he had small children and a wife (who was killed) in the home.<br>There is no evidence that the Branch Davidians practiced white supremacy at<br>all (they were just a batshit crazy religious cult led by a maniacal<br>abuser).<br><br>IOW McVeigh realized that the U.S. government did not mind when he killed<br>people under their orders and decided that the same ethical rules should<br>apply when fighting the U.S. government, which was a fight that he<br>justified by pointing to the police killings mentioned above. Beyond that<br>there is nothing to suggest that he wanted to kill people because of their<br>race, drive non-whites out of the country, etc. Given the quickness of<br>people on the Left to jump at a neo-Nazi/racist angle whenever there is<br>some kind of large attack (including Dayton, which, as I pointed out, was<br>carried out by someone who identified as a Leftist) we should be careful<br>not to sweep with a broad brush. <b>The bigger issue that McVeigh brings out<br>is not white supremacy;</b> it is the dehumanizing and desensitizing effect of<br>U.S. wars and the resultant effects when those aspects of war (including<br>militarization of police) are launched domestically.<br><br>Amith R. Gupta<br></ul></div><div>Again, as stated on the program and in a previous post, this relates to my concern with the approach taken by historian Kathleen Belew in her book The War Comes Home, and in her op-ed piece in the NYT, which elides the issues surrounding Ruby Ridge and Waco:<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/opinion/el-paso-terrorism.html">https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/opinion/el-paso-terrorism.html</a> </div><div><br></div><div> <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">News from Neptune #432<br>
Video: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trphIyYt1Ko" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trphIyYt1Ko</a><br>
A "Nagasaki Holocaust" edition<br>
<br>
<br>
Dwight Eisenhower's view on using the Atomic Bomb<br>
<a href="http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/history/pre-cold-war/hiroshima-nagasaki/opinion-eisenhower-bomb.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/history/pre-cold-war/hiroshima-nagasaki/opinion-eisenhower-bomb.htm</a><br>
Source: The White House Years: Mandate for Change: 1953-1956: A Personal <br>
Account (New York: Doubleday, 1963), pp. 312-313.<br>
<br>
Timothy P. Carney on "‘It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful <br>
thing’ --- Why dropping the A-Bombs was wrong"<br>
<a href="https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/it-wasnt-necessary-to-hit-them-with-that-awful-thing-why-dropping-the-a-bombs-was-wrong" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/it-wasnt-necessary-to-hit-them-with-that-awful-thing-why-dropping-the-a-bombs-was-wrong</a><br>
<br>
On Curtis LeMay being a hawk<br>
<a href="https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay</a><br>
<br>
Dennis Kucinich on "We Didn't Have to Drop the Bomb"<br>
<a href="https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/08/08/we_didnt_have_to_drop_the_bomb_127709.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/08/08/we_didnt_have_to_drop_the_bomb_127709.html</a><br>
<br>
Stephen Schwartz on "The Costs of U.S. Nuclear Weapons"<br>
<a href="https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/costs-us-nuclear-weapons/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/costs-us-nuclear-weapons/</a><br>
<br>
Related: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9EzA0QnSF4" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9EzA0QnSF4</a> -- RT on "Nuclear <br>
threat looms, even years after Hiroshima & Nagasaki nuclear attacks."<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Adolph Reed, Jr. on "Oats for Breakfast" show<br>
<a href="https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/episode-12-race-class-and-the-left-w-adolph-reed-jr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/episode-12-race-class-and-the-left-w-adolph-reed-jr</a> <br>
-- initially published interview<br>
<a href="https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/unlocked-extended-interview-w-adolph-reed-jr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/unlocked-extended-interview-w-adolph-reed-jr</a> <br>
-- extended interview<br>
<br>
Oats for Breakfast<br>
<a href="https://socialistproject.ca/podcast/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://socialistproject.ca/podcast/</a><br>
<br>
Glen Ford on "The Validity and Usefulness of the Term “Black Misleadership <br>
Class”"<br>
<a href="https://www.blackagendareport.com/validity-and-usefulness-term-black-misleadership-class" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.blackagendareport.com/validity-and-usefulness-term-black-misleadership-class</a><br>
<br>
Jennifer Schuessler on "Ibram X. Kendi Has a Cure for America’s ‘Metastatic <br>
Racism’"<br>
<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/06/arts/ibram-x-kendi-antiracism.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/06/arts/ibram-x-kendi-antiracism.html</a><br>
<br>
Related: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a9lRHfKaCc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a9lRHfKaCc</a> -- RT on "How <br>
corporate media covered mass shootings."<br>
<br>
Democracy Now! on "“Toni Morrison Will Always Be with Us”: Angela Davis, <br>
Nikki Giovanni & Sonia Sanchez Pay Tribute"<br>
<a href="https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/7/remembering_toni_morrison" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/7/remembering_toni_morrison</a><br>
<br>
Kathleen Belew on "The Right Way to Understand White Nationalist Terrorism"<br>
<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/opinion/el-paso-terrorism.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/opinion/el-paso-terrorism.html</a><br>
<br>
Kathleen Belew's "Bring the War Home: The White Power Movement and <br>
Paramilitary America"<br>
ISBN-10: 9780674286078<br>
ISBN-13: 978-0674286078<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Julie Wurth on "UI's Blue Waters supercomputer gets $11.1M grant to create <br>
high-res topographical maps of world"<br>
<a href="https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-s-blue-waters-supercomputer-gets-m-grant-to-create/article_2a390805-9457-5717-ab35-4d9c2892a580.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.news-gazette.com/news/ui-s-blue-waters-supercomputer-gets-m-grant-to-create/article_2a390805-9457-5717-ab35-4d9c2892a580.html</a><br>
<br>
Wikipedia's entry on National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency<br>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geospatial-Intelligence_Agency" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geospatial-Intelligence_Agency</a><br>
<br>
David Price on "Militarized Observers: Institutional Daydreams of Ethics <br>
End Runs to Weaponize Culture"<br>
<a href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/09/militarized-observers-institutional-daydreams-of-ethics-end-runs-to-weaponize-culture/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/09/militarized-observers-institutional-daydreams-of-ethics-end-runs-to-weaponize-culture/</a><br>
<br>
Gary Brecher's (pseudonym of John Dolan) Radio War Nerd<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6qV1M0aujeZ582k4gaD9wA/videos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6qV1M0aujeZ582k4gaD9wA/videos</a><br>
<br>
Related: The War Nerd articles across multiple archives<br>
<a href="http://pando.com/author/garybrecher/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://pando.com/author/garybrecher/</a> -- PandoDaily (November 2013 - <br>
November 2015)<br>
<a href="https://www.nsfwcorp.com/desk/war-nerd/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nsfwcorp.com/desk/war-nerd/</a> -- NSFWCorp (September <br>
2012-November 2013)<br>
<a href="http://www.exile.ru/articles/list.php?IBLOCK_ID=35&SECTION_ID=156" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.exile.ru/articles/list.php?IBLOCK_ID=35&SECTION_ID=156</a> -- The <br>
Exile (April 2002 - May 2008)<br>
<a href="http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/</a> -- The Exiled Online (April <br>
2011-September 2012)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Craig Murray on "In the World of Truth and Fact, Russiagate is Dead. In the <br>
World of the Political Establishment, it is Still the New 42"<br>
<a href="https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/in-the-world-of-truth-and-fact-russiagate-is-dead-in-the-world-of-the-political-establishment-it-is-still-the-new-42/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/in-the-world-of-truth-and-fact-russiagate-is-dead-in-the-world-of-the-political-establishment-it-is-still-the-new-42/</a><br>
<br>
Judge Koeltl's 81-page long judgment explaining why "the basis of <br>
Russiagate are insufficient to even warrant a hearing"<br>
<a href="https://www.scribd.com/document/420269577/DNC-lawsuit-ORDER-Granting-Motion-to-Dismiss-073019" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.scribd.com/document/420269577/DNC-lawsuit-ORDER-Granting-Motion-to-Dismiss-073019</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
J.B. Nicholson's notes<br>
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-August/051127.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-August/051127.html</a><br>
<br>
-J<br>
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</blockquote></div>