<div dir="ltr"><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters.</span></font><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif"><font color="#000000">Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime.<br></font></font><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif">Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate.</font></div><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font size="4" face="arial, sans-serif">DG</font></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels
of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation.
<div> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump
really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [<a href="https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/" target="_blank">https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/</a>],
leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,… And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. </div>
<div>But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. <br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>Good show<br>
<br>
My thoughts while watching: <br>
<br>
It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing “race as not the issue, focus should be on class,” are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther.
<br>
<br>
Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, “America isn’t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.”<br>
<br>
As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting
with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video</a> <<a href="https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video</a>><br>
<br>
Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as “Leftists,” when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not
all, the <a href="http://WSWS.ORG" target="_blank">WSWS.ORG</a> does not support imperialism in Syria. <br>
<br>
Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace <<a href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace@lists.chambana.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
News from Neptune #442<br>
A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition<br>
Video: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc</a><br>
<br>
A list of links to items referenced on the show.<br>
<br>
Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James"<br>
<a href="https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm" target="_blank">https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm</a><br>
<br>
Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist"<br>
<a href="https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/" target="_blank">https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/</a><br>
<br>
Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"<br>
<a href="https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html" target="_blank">https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html</a><br>
<br>
Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"<br>
<a href="https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html" target="_blank">https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html</a><br>
<br>
"Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson<br>
Published: October 2005<br>
Complete book: <a href="https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf" target="_blank">https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf</a><br>
Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6<br>
eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1<br>
<br>
Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear"<br>
<a href="https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf" target="_blank">https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf</a><br>
<br>
"The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger<br>
Complete book: <a href="https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf" target="_blank">https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor"<br>
Winter 2005 number 16: <a href="https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf" target="_blank">https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Articles about Noel Ignatiev<br>
<a href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/" target="_blank">https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/" target="_blank">http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/</a><br>
<br>
"How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev<br>
ISBN: 0415918251<br>
ISBN13: 9780415918251<br>
<br>
Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness"<br>
<a href="http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html" target="_blank">http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html</a><br>
<br>
Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need"<br>
<a href="https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need" target="_blank">https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America"<br>
<a href="https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america" target="_blank">https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america</a><br>
<br>
David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss<br>
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette<br>
<a href="https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html" target="_blank">https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html</a> -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda"<br>
<a href="https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html" target="_blank">https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html</a> -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc"<br>
<br>
C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette’s feature “Those Who Served” weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette<br>
<a href="https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html" target="_blank">https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html</a><br>
<br>
Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow"<br>
<a href="https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973)" target="_blank">https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973)</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption"<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE</a><br>
<a href="https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365" target="_blank">https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365</a><br>
<br>
Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan"<br>
<a href="https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/" target="_blank">https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam’s Razor"<br>
<a href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/" target="_blank">https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/</a><br>
<br>
Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn’t a ‘Managed Massacre’"<br>
<a href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/" target="_blank">https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
J.B. Nicholson's notes<br>
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html" target="_blank">https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html</a><br>
<br>
-J<br>
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