[Peace] Fwd: [marxmail] Will Putin voluntarily withdraw? A reply to Ron Jacobs

[David Green]

A minor but necessary correction: this is a sensible reply by Jacobs to the
"Marxist" imperialist element that is dominant on the "Marxmail" listserv.

DG

On Wed, May 4, 2022, 2:24 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *"Ron Jacobs" <ronj1955 at gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [marxmail] Will Putin voluntarily withdraw? A reply to
> Ron Jacobs*
> *Date: *May 4, 2022 at 1:55:20 PM CDT
> *To: *marxmail at groups.io
> *Reply-To: *marxmail at groups.io
>
> A couple things.  Calling for peace is not selfish.  My opening line,
> which you quote, does not assume any particular order to the events after a
> ceasefire is in place.  There is no magic involved.  If one looks to
> history, they will clearly see that most wars end with a negotiated
> settlement.  This is especially true for those provoked and carried out by
> the United States since 1944.  In 1965, when the US movement against the US
> war on the Vietnamese took a giant step forward, it called for
> negotiations.  The prowar crowd in the government, media, military and
> corporate America said we the movement was dreaming.  So did the cynics in
> the media and population.  Nonetheless, the antiwar organizers of all
> persuasions carried on with their organizing and saw the movement grow
> bigger and bigger.  In 1973, a peace agreement was signed between the US
> and the Vietnamese liberation armies.  This was the result of the conflict
> on the ground, the determination of the Vietnamese people and the
> international.antiwar Movement that existed.  Of course, Washington
> couldn't actually accept the terms of the negotiations and continued to
> fund their disintegrating proxy army based out of what was then called
> Saigon.  The Pentagon also continued bombing raids, covert ops and other
> support until April 30, 1975, when it left in a hurry after the proxy army
> gave up.
> While the situation in Ukraine is a very far cry from the revolutionary
> war for independence fought by the Vietnamese--Ukraine's government is not
> revolutionary or socialist, for starters--my point is that the fact of a
> large, occasionally militant international antiwar movement was an
> important peace in ending that war.  That's the direct lesson.
> Given the important differences between that war and the one between
> Ukraine and Russia, I look for more appropriate historical periods to look
> at when considering the conflict in Ukraine.  Let me suggest Spring 1914.
> Empires are on edge, with one seeing itself as the dominant and only
> empire.  That latter empire rejects compromise and prevents its
> allies/clients from accepting it, too.  The growing intransigence of the
> empires ultimately result in war.  First, among one,two, or three nations,
> then all hell breaks lose.  The socialist movement is at first opposed to
> the war their analysis tells them is coming.  Indeed, they call for an
> international movement against the war.  However, others calling themselves
> socialist fall prey to the fever, approve war funding and conscription and,
> after a few years of the most incredible violence perpetrated on humans by
> other humans, the war ends in the midst of mutinies, revolution and various
> crowns scurrying to keep face.  The socialist champions of that
> international antiwar movement which faltered and then disappeared help
> foment one of those revolutions in Germany and are murdered by order of the
> social democrats in power--many of the same people who abandoned the call
> for peace and jumped on the imperial war wagon.
> The analogy is not perfect, in part because 100 years have passed.  But I
> stick by my position.  We need an international antiwar movement, not a
> cheerleading squad for the arms industry.  Demanding peace is not calling
> for more war.
> _._,_._,_
> ------------------------------
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
> View/Reply Online (#16530) <https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/16530> | Reply
> To Group
> <marxmail at groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bmarxmail%5D%20Will%20Putin%20voluntarily%20withdraw%3F%20A%20reply%20to%20Ron%20Jacobs>
> | Reply To Sender
> <ronj1955 at gmail.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bmarxmail%5D%20Will%20Putin%20voluntarily%20withdraw%3F%20A%20reply%20to%20Ron%20Jacobs>
> | Mute This Topic <https://groups.io/mt/90886986/4845548> | New Topic
> <https://groups.io/g/marxmail/post>
> ------------------------------
> POSTING RULES & NOTES
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> #4 Do not exceed five posts a day.
> ------------------------------
> Your Subscription <https://groups.io/g/marxmail/editsub/4845548> | Contact
> Group Owner <marxmail+owner at groups.io> | Unsubscribe
> <https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674514/4845548/604904006/xyzzy> [
> carl at newsfromneptune.com]
> _._,_._,_
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/attachments/20220504/762f1f2c/attachment.htm>