[Peace-discuss] Flag flap
Sandra Ahten
spiritofsandra at hotmail.com
Mon Nov 10 16:11:59 CST 2003
Last week I said that my niece and nephew shouldn't "behave like Indians."
-- Certainly a racist comment made by someone probably about as racist as
Dean is... someone who tries hard to overcome what has been socialized into
me... and who has good intention (like Dean) but is still racisit and has to
be able to admit it in order to overcome it.
Sandra
>From: Alfred Kagan <akagan at uiuc.edu>
>To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
>CC: Peace-discuss at lists.groogroo.com
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Flag flap
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:07:44 -0600
>
>I don't think I can explain it any more. Perhaps someone else would like
>to take this on?
>
>
>At 2:59 PM -0600 11/10/03, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>You insist that Dean and Clinton are racists. What can that mean? Neither
>>holds conscious contempt for others, based on skin color. You say their
>>racism is "unconscious." Do you mean something like the Freudian sense in
>>which all men are parricides? I would think that our real political
>>problems are things like the objectively racist polices of the Clinton
>>administration, and they are related to the class issues that Dean's
>>comment adumbrated. --CGE
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> The crux of the issue is when you write that "-- of course neither is
>>> a racist in any serious sense." Here is where we have a fundamental
>>> disagreement. We can easily see the small numbers of people like
>>> Matt Hales and KKK followers, but it is harder to see the huge
>>> numbers of people who are basically quiet about their racism. Many
>>> folks genuinely believe they are not racists and can't understand why
>>> they get involved in such issues. Here are think Dean is a perfect
>>> example. It is the deep racism within the structure and ethos of
>>> society that is much more important and serious than the KKK variety.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 2:10 PM -0600 11/10/03, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>> >So, you're saying that, since "most white Americans are socialized to
>>>be
>>> >racists," Dean and Clinton are both "unconscious racists"?
>>> >
>>> >I doubt there's much to choose between the personal attitudes of the
>>>two
>>> >-- of course neither is a racist in any serious sense. But the Clinton
>>> >administration's policies were objectively racist, in that they
>>>treated
>>> >inequably groups that can be described by color -- e.g., on welfare
>>> >reform, incarceration, drug laws. It's true that the discrimination
>>>did
>>> >not usually arise because of color (rather class), but there were many
>>> >more black women in prison at the end of the Clinton administration
>>>than
>>> >at the beginning; altho' whites and blacks were using drugs at roughly
>>>the
>>> >same rate, those imprisoned for drugs in the 90s were overwhelmingly
>>> >black; and altho' there are many more poor white people than poor
>>>black
>>> >people in the US, a larger proportion of blacks were injured by
>>>Clinton's
>>> >revocation of the New Deal in regard to welfare.
>>> >
>>> >Under those circumstances, blacks rallying to Clinton were as
>>>misguided as
>>> >feminists who did so -- and on matters of gender, his objectionable
>>> >personal attitudes were hardly in doubt (and accusations of rape never
>>> >resolved).
>>> >
>>> >But it's straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to suggest that
>>>Dean
>>> >has slipped and said a Bad Word while ignoring that he was actually
>>> >nodding at -- the sort of reforms (opposed by the Clinton
>>>administration)
>>> >that are necessary:
>>> >
>>> >"White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate
>>>flag
>>> >decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't
>>> >have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
>>> >
>>> >(I do admit that it's probably only campaign rhetoric on Dean's part.)
>>> >
>>> >--CGE
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Most white Americans are socialized to be racists. We have to work
>>>to
>>> >> get rid of the racism we learn as we grow up. Many
>>>African-Americans
>>> >> seem to have related well to Clinton. Perhaps he learned more
>>>about
>>> >> racism than some of his peers, and perhaps people picked up on
>>>that.
>>> >> But Clinton often showed promise on issues. Unfortunately he
>>>rarely
>>> >> fulfilled the promise.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >Would you say Bill Clinton was an "unconscious racist," too? That
>>>sounds
>>> >> >to me like the sort of "thought-crime" described in 1984.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Dean was not embracing the Confederate flag. He was awkwardly and
>>> >> >jocularly describing a type, with a description he'd used before.
>>>And he
>> > >> >was asserting his wish to attract people of this type to vote for
>>him
>>> >> >rather than for Republicans by (he wouldn't say this) social
>>>democratic
>>> >> >policies.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >You don't seem to have posted your comment to the list. Do you
>>>mean it to
>>> >> >remain private? --CGE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > Trying to cut through this debate is difficult. We are not
>>> >> >> communicating very well. Dean is not an overt racist, but he is
>>>an
>>> >> >> unconscious racist. He may want to overcome this but he has not
>>> >> >> succeeded. Black people can see this for what it is. AWARE
>>>needs to
>>> >> >> understand this dynamic.
>>> >> > >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Al Kagan
>>> >> African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library
>>>Administration
>>> >> Africana Unit, Room 328
>>> >> University of Illinois Library
>>> > > 1408 W. Gregory Drive
>>> >> Urbana, IL 61801, USA
>>> >>
>>> >> tel. 217-333-6519
>>> >> fax. 217-333-2214
>>> >> e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>> >> Peace-discuss at lists.cu.groogroo.com
>>> >> http://lists.cu.groogroo.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Al Kagan
>>> African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library Administration
>>> Africana Unit, Room 328
>>> University of Illinois Library
>>> 1408 W. Gregory Drive
>>> Urbana, IL 61801, USA
>>>
>>> tel. 217-333-6519
>>> fax. 217-333-2214
>>> e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu
>>>
>
>
>--
>
>
>Al Kagan
>African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library Administration
>Africana Unit, Room 328
>University of Illinois Library
>1408 W. Gregory Drive
>Urbana, IL 61801, USA
>
>tel. 217-333-6519
>fax. 217-333-2214
>e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu
>
>_______________________________________________
>Peace-discuss mailing list
>Peace-discuss at lists.cu.groogroo.com
>http://lists.cu.groogroo.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
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