[Peace-discuss] Was the election stolen?

[Phil Stinard]

Hi Mort,

No where in my post did I say that I didn't care that Bush won.  I did say 
that the fraud was par for the course, but that something needed to be done, 
and I pointed out Venezuela's experience with touch-screen voting machines 
as a positive example of what could be done.  I also called for action to be 
taken before the next election.  I didn't say that I thought that current 
accusations of fraud shouldn't be investigated.  My feelings are to the 
contrary.  I did say that fraud has been going on for many years, and that 
the two major parties don't seem to be interested in preventing this.  It's 
up to activists within the parties as well as independents to push changes 
in how elections are conducted.

I'm honored that you took the time to put words in my mouth, even if they 
are incorrect ones :-)  No hard feelings.

--Phil

>From: Morton K. Brussel <brussel at uiuc.edu>
>To: "Phil Stinard" <pstinard at hotmail.com>
>CC: peace-discuss at lists.cu.groogroo.com
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Was the election stolen?
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:25:31 -0600
>
>Phil, Relative to your remarks, given below, many, perhaps most, are 
>embittered not because Kerry as a person and politician lost, but because 
>Bush "won" (if he did). I care little about Kerry, and dislike his foreign 
>policies especially, but foresee great dangers for us and the world because 
>Bush now has a supposed mandate to carry out his ugly policies, his 
>aggressions abroad and here. We've had this argument before, but you seem 
>not to care that Bush and his ilk are now in the driver's seat for another 
>four years, with consequences extending well past his term, and I think 
>that deeply regrettable.
>
>As for your casting aside as par for the course the fraud that may have 
>been committed---grave questions on the election process which you do not 
>seem to want to consider---I think that too is regrettable. It is no excuse 
>to say that frauds are inevitable, or that there have been frauds in 
>previous elections. We have to try to eliminate them, and if they caused 
>the election to be perverted in this election, it is to the progressive 
>community all the more important in view of the nature of  who will be in 
>power. That Kerry has been silent on the subject is neither here nor there, 
>given his past performances; it may also be due to his estimation that it 
>was futile to contest the results, or perhaps he just lacked guts or a 
>misplaced sense of decency---similar to what Gore showed in year 2000. I 
>believe that with the stakes so high in the election, one should fight as 
>hard as possible to show, if there is a possibility of showing, that Bush 
>in fact has no mandate, and that possibly the election was once more 
>stolen.
>
>Mort
>
>On Nov 7, 2004, at 8:24 PM, Phil Stinard wrote:
>
>>  However, I understand that there are some embittered Kerry voters who 
>>feel that their vote WAS stolen because Kerry didn't win.  I put in that 
>>last clause intentionally, because had Kerry won, I doubt that few Kerry 
>>supporters would be complaining about fraud or stolen votes.  My view is 
>>that there is a certain amount of fraud, discarded votes, and 
>>disenfranchisement in every election, and that this election was no worse 
>>than any other, and yet, it is only the loser in a close race who cries 
>>fraud, or more precisely, the supporters of the loser who cry fraud, 
>>because Kerry himself is rather silent on the subject.
>