[Peace-discuss] The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us

[Morton K. Brussel]

I don't think this discussion is useful for the peace-discuss list,  
although it is enlightening to know how some Christians think.
In particular I find it is a rather parochial view, which illustrates  
just why some perceive the views of certain Christian folk to be a  
threat to a secular society. I'll simply append some comments to the  
text.  --mkb


On Dec 26, 2005, at 5:36 AM, Phil Stinard wrote:

> Thanks, Janine, I couldn't have said it better myself.
>
> --Phil
>
>> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:43:14 -0600
>> From: janine giordano <jgiord2 at uiuc.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us
>> To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>, "C. G. Estabrook"
>> 	<galliher at uiuc.edu>,	Tracy Nectoux <tnectoux at uiuc.edu>,
>> 	peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> Message-ID: <29acd03a.6f4990ea.8357e00 at expms4.cites.uiuc.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>
>> Agreed, the time of year to celebrate Christianity, and
>> indeed the definition of "pagans," arose in the course of
>> defending the Christian faith against worshippers of other
>> gods.

"Defending" or extending?

>> But, why do some think that this knowledge gives them
>> the freedom to lash out against the legitimacy of Christian
>> faith?:

Legitimacy for whom? --More legitimate than other beliefs?

>> Why the need to call Christ X? Why the desire to
>> erode Christmas of its spirituality for the secular popular
>> sector?

Would you believe it?; we are not all Christians here.

>> What is so threatening about Christianity?

It's militant character, that aspect which tends to proselytize and  
to control the lives and environment even of nonchristians.  
Christianity of course is not unique in this; Islam for example has  
shown the same tendency.
>>
>> If we really hope to build a movement, if we really hope to
>> build some kind of tangible change from "presences" outside
>> of churches, we have to articulate why we find Christianity
>> is so threatening.

It is the parochial mindset of such an expression which some find  
threatening. Who is the "we" that is being discussed? We  
nonchristians in AWARE do not find the Christians of our group  
threatening, so this is beating the wrong dead horse.

>> We have to decide whether or not we are
>> willing to build coalition with believers that Christ is the
>> one and only Messiah, Savior of the World.

Is this last clause to be accepted by all? I'm unsure about what  
Janine means to say.

>> We have to decide
>> whether we want our movement for social justice/ peace/ etc
>> to be completely marxist-materialist or not.

What does "completely marxist-materialist" mean or imply? Are all who  
are not Christians Marxist materialist? Are those who do not believe  
in ghosts and miracles all marxist materialist. Do only Christians  
love spiritual things like art or music or nature or ….?  Is this to  
be another modified anti-communism crusade?

>> I use "we" as
>> referring to my identification with those who fight for
>> social justice and human dignity.

Why the words "my identification with"?

>> As a Christian, I do not
>> understand this obsessive need to turn Christ into "Xy" and
>> discuss its historically contingent syncretism. Knowing
>> Christ is not something someone can be rationally convinced
>> into or out of.

To us non "we's" the whole controversy of "Xy" is of little import,  
and somewhat silly.
>>
>> My opinion is that we are not going to get very far with an
>> activist movement for justice in this country without the
>> collaboration of "believers" (those whose faith is in
>> something unseen). We don't all have to ask each other to
>> convert. But, we have to respect each other's traditions. Do
>> we really believe that Christian theology is at the center
>> of Bush's conservative-hegemonic political coalition?

  It's hard to fathom Bush; the Christian evangelical fundamentalists  
certainly are in favor of his policies.  But then again, so are the  
neocon or paleocon Zionists.

>> If so,
>> please explain. If not, can we please start fighting the
>> real beast-----or at least come to consensus in defining the
>> real beast?? At risk here are millions of socially conscious
>> believers (Christian and otherwise) who are upset by an
>> attack on their treasure, their identity, their worldly
>> motivation.

I'm all for marshalling or enlisting or joining Christians against  
the antisocial and anti humane policies of the administration, as  
long as they are tolerant of others' religious or irreligious beliefs.
>>
>> janine

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