[Peace-discuss] Reply re Darfur

Wed Dec 6 15:34:53 CST 2006

    It's a good question. Facts matter, but so do motives. A lot of the liberal problem in this country has to do with not understanding the motives of the neocons--that they didn't go into Iraq to take out Saddam and replace him with democracy. This allows liberals to let war supporters (including themselves) of the hook, and go from there to waffle on withdrawal, again based on the illusion of our "good intentions." I think that Wiesel's motives are awful, and if they represent the move to intervene in Darfur, it's a sign that this intervention not only will come to no good, it's for the cause of no good--that is U.S./European hegemony in the region. Obviously, that's not a good prognosis for actually stopping the conflict.
   
  DG

Wendy Edwards <wedwards at uiuc.edu> wrote:
  Wait, isn't it a logical fallacy to say, "Since I find Wiesel's
positions on other issues questionable, whatever he has to say
about Darfur must be wrong too?"

Wendy

On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 02:55:18PM -0600, Morton K. Brussel wrote:
> I am sympathetic with your concern for the atrocities in Darfur, and 
> that intervention (of some sort) to stop them is needed, but you do 
> your case no good in arguing for intervention there by quoting 
> someone, Weisel, whose hypocrisy is manifest: It could lead one to 
> believe that intervention in Darfur would have hidden unsavory 
> motives. In addition, I can't help venturing the opinion that Amnesty 
> has been anything but "evenhanded" in its mutual condemnation of what 
> has transpired in Lebanon and in Gaza/West Bank. It has bent over 
> backwards to say that both sides are (equally) guilty. --mkb
> 
> 
> On Dec 6, 2006, at 2:41 PM, Scott Edwards wrote:
> 
> >*sigh*
> >
> >If I had attributed the quote to Mickey Mouse, would there be any 
> >actual substantive responses related to Darfur?
> >
> >Also, since we were (for some confused reason) talking about Darfur 
> >and Gaza the Wiesel quote (incuding the obvious disconnect with 
> >occupied-territory policy) was intentional.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "C. G. Estabrook" 
> >>To: Scott Edwards 
> >>CC: Peace Discuss 
> >>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] RE: Darfur (and Gaza)
> >>Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:32:32 -0600
> >>
> >>Quoting that sanctimonious fraud Elie Wiesel is an indication of 
> >>the moral and political ambiguity of the "save Darfur" movement. 
> >>Entirely a propagandist for Israel, Wiesel holds the view that one 
> >>should be silent about atrocities carried out by Israel. Or even 
> >>by states allied to Israel: fifteen years ago he tried to convince 
> >>holocaust scholars not to attend a genocide conference because it 
> >>was going to deal with the Armenian genocide, and the Israeli 
> >>authorities wanted to cancel the conference because it might harm 
> >>their relations with Turkey. (The effective Turkey-Israel alliance 
> >>remains the basis of US control of Middle East energy resources.) 
> >>--CGE
> >>
> >>Scott Edwards wrote:
> >>>Killing civilians is not an indication of a "political conflict". 
> >>>Widespread sexual violence is not a by-product of civil war. And 
> >>>the injustice in Gaza is no excuse for an injustice in Darfur. I 
> >>>challenge anyone to spend three years trying to address 
> >>>widespread rape, murder, poverty, and disease with little success 
> >>>and "feel good" about it.
> >>>
> >>>The UN is old news. No one even close to *remotely* familiar with 
> >>>the situation in Darfur has had any non-rhetorical hope for a UN 
> >>>peacekeeping operation for about a month and some change. The 
> >>>government of Khartoum, responsible for millions of deaths since 
> >>>the mid-80s, has heroically stood up to the international 
> >>>community, and the international community has heroically backed 
> >>>down.
> >>>
> >>>"Sometimes, we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, 
> >>>when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and 
> >>>sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are 
> >>>persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, 
> >>>that place must--at that moment--become the center of the 
> >>>universe." --Elie Wiesel
> >>>
> >>>-scott
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Message: 3
> >>>>Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:43:05 -0600
> >>>>From: "C. G. Estabrook" 
> >>>>Subject: [Peace-discuss] Darfur (and Gaza)
> >>>>
> >>>>"Military intervention won?t stop the killing. Those who are 
> >>>>clamouring
> >>>>for troops to fight their way into Darfur are suffering from a 
> >>>>salvation
> >>>>delusion. It?s a simple reality that UN troops can?t stop an 
> >>>>ongoing
> >>>>war, and their record at protecting civilians is far from perfect.
> >>>>Moreover, the idea of Bush and Blair acting as global moral 
> >>>>arbiters
> >>>>doesn?t travel well. The crisis in Darfur is political. It?s a 
> >>>>civil
> >>>>war, and like all wars it needs a political settlement..."
> >>>>
> >>>>Full article at
> >>>>http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n23/waal01_.html
> >>>>
> >>>>"Since March 1 the New York Times has run seventy news stories 
> >>>>on Darfur
> >>>>(including sixteen pieces from wire services), fifteen 
> >>>>editorials and
> >>>>twenty-one signed columns, all but one by Nicholas Kristof. 
> >>>>Darfur is
> >>>>primarily a 'feel good' subject for people here who want to agonize
> >>>>publicly about injustices in the world but who don't really want 
> >>>>to do
> >>>>anything about them...
> >>>>
> >>>>"Now, Gaza is an entirely different story. The American public 
> >>>>as well
> >>>>as the US government have a great deal of control over what is 
> >>>>happening
> >>>>there. And it is Israel, America's prime ally in the Middle East 
> >>>>that
> >>>>is, on a day-to-day basis, with America's full support, inflicting
> >>>>appalling brutalities on a civilian population. To report in any 
> >>>>detail
> >>>>on what's going on in Gaza means accusing the United States of 
> >>>>active
> >>>>complicity in terrible crimes wrought by Israel, as it 
> >>>>methodically lays
> >>>>waste a society of 1.5 million Palestinians..."
> >>>>
> >>>>Full article at
> >>>>http://counterpunch.org/cockburn12042006.html
> >>>>
> >>>> ###
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>------------------------------
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 9
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