[Peace-discuss] RE: Natural Law and Paul's pessimism

[Phil Stinard]

Bob and Janine, thanks for your comments.  I'm going to side with Janine's 
analysis of Natural Law (that it's flawed and insufficient), but I'd also 
like to tackle some of the concerns raised by Bob.  Bob, it appears that 
you're grounding your arguments in Christian beliefs, reconciling them with 
Natural Law and other philosophies that don't require God as a foundation.  
Is that correct?  Bob wrote:

>If we are made in the image of God, then we can understand God by
>understanding ourselves. The thing that drove early Christian thinkers,
>especially Paul, crazy was that understanding what was right, they
>nevertheless seemed to be unable to do by it. Paul thought that people
>were so flawed that only by turning ones life over to God second by
>second could one hope to do any good. I am not as pessimistic as Paul
>(at least not usually).

I think it's a fundamental mistake to think that we can understand God by 
understanding ourselves.  The Bible teaches us that God is a perfect being 
who created the heavens and the earth.  We humans were created with free 
will, but fell into a state of sin by conscious rebellion against God.  If 
you accept that, then it would be impossible to understand God by 
understanding ourselves.  You will end up with a distorted view of God based 
on our own experiences, emotions, and prejudices.  Here is the passage you 
are referring to when you speak of Paul's torment and pessimism (Romans 
7:18-25):

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for 
to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find 
not.  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, 
that I do.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but 
sin that dwelleth in me.  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, 
evil is present with me.  For I delight in the law of God after the inward 
man:  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my 
mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my 
members.  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of 
this death?  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the 
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

You view this as pessimistic, but I view it as an admission that we need God 
in our lives in order to even THINK about beginning to be able to do right.  
This passage gives me reassurance that it's possible overcome anything.  
Paul was tormented, yes, but he came out of it fine through his faith in 
Jesus Christ.  If you continue on into Romans 8, you find, "For the law of 
the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and 
death" (Romans 8:2) and "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, 
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things 
to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to 
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 
8:38-39).

What you view as a flaw, having to turn our lives over to God on a second by 
second basis, I view as essential.  If you don't, it's like the blind 
leading the blind.  Human rules of conduct change with every passing fad.  
God's law is immutable.  That's a fundamental Christian belief that I hold 
dearly.

Continuing on, you write:

>What drives me crazy is the perversion of Jesus's message of peace
>and inclusiveness into a message of war and exclusiveness. The
>Bible has been used to argue for all sorts of nonsense, including
>slavery and the inferiority of women. One must read the Bible with
>one's brain turned on at all times if one is not to fall into serious
>error.

I'm blessed (if you can call it a blessing!) with being able to see both 
sides of the issue of war and peace, and where each side is coming from.  I 
agree with you generally about the perversion of Jesus' message by some 
elements that call themselves Christian.  It's also perverted by people who 
don't believe in the Bible's authority, or who believe in it but either 
haven't read it or take secondary sources' word for what it says.  This is 
all extremely troublesome to me.  That's why I try to back up my comments 
about the Bible's teachings with direct quotes and citations.  I'd like to 
close by agreeing with your last assertion, "One must read the Bible with 
one's brain turned on at all times if one is not to fall into serious 
error," and Paul's affirmation on the need to diligently study the word of 
God in order to understand its meaning and application (Paul has a quote for 
every occasion, doesn't he? :-):  "Study to show thyself approved unto God, 
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of 
truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

--Phil