[Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us

[Paul M. King]

I'm standing down on the theological aspect of this discussion
too. It's been interesting, though. Thoughtful Christians are,
in my experience, rare and I always enjoy talking/typing with
them. I hope it has been constructive for others.

I'd love to be involved with the churches in some way on
behalf of AWARE. Spiritual fellowship is indeed a powerful and
attractive idea. But since I carry a lot of emotional baggage
towards the imperial creed of our land and strongly reject
it's most fundamental tenets, I would not be a good
ambassador. I think that people like Phil and Janine should
get lots of support, though.



---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 02:17:00 -0600
>From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>  
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for
All of Us   
>To: "Paul M. King" <pmking at uiuc.edu>, Peace-discuss
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
>"John said, 'Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your
>name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow
>with us.'  But Jesus said to him, 'Do not stop him; for
>whoever is not against you is for you.'" (Luke 9.49-50)
>
>Given that there's a lot of demon-casting to be done, it seems
>to me that we, Xns and non-Xns alike, should follow this bit
>of dominical advice.  --CGE
>
>
>---- Original message ----
>>Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:16:09 -0600
>>From: "Paul M. King" <pmking at uiuc.edu>  
>>Subject: [Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for All
>of Us   
>>To: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>
>>> you choose to brand me a fanatic, worthy of rejection,
>>> and if your views are similar to those of other AWARE 
>>> members, it explains a lot.
>>
>>You're right, Phil. Janine said it nicely: "To me, it's not
>>about compromise but alignment on a couple key points for a
>>greater cause." Debate about core beliefs and identities is
>>fruitless and rejection is foolish. It's better to work
>>together contentiously than isolate ourselves in peaceful
>>ignorance.
>>
>>Also, I'm sorry if I've inadvertently branded any Christians
>>on this listserv as fanatic. However, I and many others feel
>>branded as unregenerate sinners by Christendom and I don't
>>like it. It's presumptive, arrogant, dismissive and wrong.
>>Most importantly, it separates me from you.
>>
>>> On the issue of materialism, would you agree that
>>> rejecting fundamentalists reduces the social justice
>>> movement to a humanist position?  If God is removed
>>> from the equation, doesn’t that just leave humanistic
>>> reasons for supporting social justice?
>>
>>Phil, I have a question for you. I'm reborn but I reject Jesus
>>as my savior. How do you reconcile this?
>>
>>I think most people in the social justice movement are
>>spiritually mature. I can feel it when I'm with them. You do
>>too, don't you, Phil? We are brethren with an unspoken and
>>holy bond to one another. Many, I'm sure, have experienced a
>>rebirth outside of the ideological confines of Christianity.
>>The science of rebirth transcends and predates any specific
>>creed and has been documented in (many pagan) cultures
>>throughout the world. We are not Godless just because we
>>reject Jesus as our savior. God is still part of the equation.
>>We just don't conceive of God as a brand name with a logo. The
>>language of humanism is simply a semantic bridge between
>>tolerant people within a pluralistic society.
>>
>>> What you're describing has a Christian counterpart
>>> called the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  It's a
>>> continual process, and exceedingly fascinating. It's
>>> joyful, at times painful, and it does have something
>>> to do with realizing when we are wrong.  I assure you,
>>> Christian faith doesn't stop when you're born again.
>>
>>I've never heard of the indwelling. Sounds like a beautiful
>>idea.
>>
>>> For Christians, love is externalized, focused on God
>>> and neighbor. ... For non-Christians, there seems to
>>> be a greater love of self.
>>
>>I don't think so. Again, I think this is a failure to
>>acknowledge the value and legitimacy of other faiths, whether
>>it's organized or home-grown and personal. This is the
>>essential arrogance of Christianity and it is also very
>>dangerous (for the reasons Mark enumerated).
>>
>>> Christianity, true Christianity, is not about public
>>> appearances or doing lip service, it's about deep
>>> abiding faith, and transforming your life to serve God.
>>
>>I wish more Christians felt this way, Phil.
>>
>>Question: What would it mean for AWARE to have substantive
>>dialogue with the mainstream Christian community? What do we
>>want from them? What can we give them? What is the best way to
>>develop genuine relationships with them for the purpose of
>>building future coalitions?
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