[Peace-discuss] Interview with Dahr Jamail

[C. G. Estabrook]

	Thursday, April 28th, 2005
	http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1346252

Dahr Jamail, one of the few independent, unembedded journalists 
reporting in Iraq for months, joins us in our firehouse studio to 
discuss the siege of Fallujah, detention of Iraqis, so-called 
"reconstruction" and much more.

One of the most enduring images of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal 
is the photograph of a prisoner cloaked in black, standing on a box with 
wires attached to his outstretched arms.

Now, the man depicted in the photo has reportedly been identified. He is 
speaking out on this week's edition of the PBS newsmagazine "Now." His 
name is Haj Ali. He was a mayor of a Baghdad suburb and a member of the 
ruling Baath Party, when he was snatched off the street in late 2003 and 
transported to Abu Ghraib, despite denying involvement in the insurgency.

In the interview, Ali says, "They made me stand on a box with my hands 
hooked to wires and shocked me with electricity. It felt like my 
eyeballs were coming out of their sockets. I fell, and they put me back 
up again for more."

Today is the first anniversary of the publication of the Abu Ghraib 
prisoner abuse scandal.

We turn now to Iraq. An article in the British newspaper the Guardian 
titled "This Is Our Guernica" reads:

       "In the 1930s the Spanish city of Guernica became a symbol of 
wanton murder and destruction. In the 1990s Grozny was cruelly flattened 
by the Russians; it still lies in ruins. This decade"s unforgettable 
monument to brutality and overkill is Falluja, a text-book case of how 
not to handle an insurgency, and a reminder that unpopular occupations 
will always degenerate into desperation and atrocity."

Those are the words of journalist Dahr Jamil. He spent many months in 
Iraq as one of the only independent, unembedded journalists there. He 
published his reports on a blog called DahrJamailIraq.com and was a 
regular guest on Democracy Now! He joins us in our firehouse studio 
today. RUSH TRANSCRIPT

AMY GOODMAN: Welcome to Democracy Now!

DAHR JAMAIL: Thanks, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: It's very good to have you with us. Can you talk more about 
this image of the Guernica, and what Iraq and specifically Fallujah has 
meant?

DAHR JAMAIL: Fallujah, which was the symbol of the resistance in Iraq to 
the U.S. occupation and throughout the Middle East at that point is now 
70% estimated to be bombed to the ground, no water, no electricity. 
People who want to go back into that city have to get retina scans, all 
ten fingers fingerprinted, then they're issued an ID card. People inside 
the city are referring to it as a big jail. It is a horrendous 
situation, and we still have hundreds of thousands of refugees as a 
result. And the goal of the mission of sieging Fallujah as announced by 
the U.S. military was to capture the phantom Zarqawi and to bring 
security and stability for the elections, and what's left is a situation 
where Fallujah is in shambles, and the resistance has spread throughout 
the country.

AMY GOODMAN: Who is doing the retina scans, the fingerprinting?

DAHR JAMAIL: The U.S. military is doing all of this.

AMY GOODMAN: And how many people are kept out of Fallujah now? How many 
people actually live there? How many were there to begin with?

DAHR JAMAIL: The latest estimate is of a city of 350,000 people, that 
50,000 now have returned back inside the city.

AMY GOODMAN: And what's happened? Where have the others gone?

DAHR JAMAIL: They are still in refugee camps. There are refugee camps 
all around the outskirts of Fallujah, throughout many areas of Baghdad, 
even parts of Iraq south of the capital city. They are living in, of 
course, horrible conditions. There's running water at some of these 
refugee camps, none at others. No electricity. They are depending 
primarily on other Iraqis for aid, which is a very difficult situation, 
because now we have an estimated 65% unemployment in Iraq. Basic 
infrastructure remains in shambles. And this is a community then that is 
trying to support over 300,000 refugees at this point.

AMY GOODMAN: Now that you have come back, what is the contrast or the 
difference between what you learn about Iraq when you are here versus 
when you are there on the ground?

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, watching the corporate media back here, I see the 
disparity between that and what's actually happening on the ground 
continue to grow. If we look at corporate media, we're led to believe 
that after the January 30 elections, things are better in Iraq. We have 
a democracy there. Yes, it's -- there's still a little chaos, but things 
are getting better, but that is not the facts at all when we look at 
just the numbers. We have still an average of over a soldier a day 
dying, ten times that number wounded, infrastructure in shambles, and 
things continue to get worse. At least a car bomb a day in Baghdad and 
insecurity throughout most of the rest of the country.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Dahr Jamail, unembedded reporter in Iraq, 
now back in the United States. We'll come back to talk with him in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: Our guest in studio, Dahr Jamail, who runs the blog, 
DahrJamailIraq.com, just returned from Iraq, was there for eight months 
and reported to us on a somewhat regular basis. You are talking about 
Fallujah. What about the use of chemical weapons there? Last November, 
you reported the U.S. military has used poison gas and other 
non-conventional weapons against civilians in Fallujah. How do you know 
this?

DAHR JAMAIL: Many of the refugees I interviewed throughout November, 
just after the beginning of the siege, and then people who had been 
coming out of the city even into December, continued to report the use 
of chemical weapons in Fallujah, but really, one of the most important 
sources I have for this is an Iraqi doctor that I interviewed on the 
outskirts of Fallujah, and he said that he had worked as a medic during 
the Iran-Iraq War, he had treated Iraqi soldiers who had been hit with 
Iranian chemical weapons, so he knew what these types of injuries look 
like. And he said that he had treated people from Fallujah with the same 
types of injuries, as well as another Iraqi man that I had interviewed 
who went into the city, brought in by U.S. soldiers to help bury bodies, 
and that he had seen many bodies that he believed to have been hit by 
chemical weapons.

AMY GOODMAN: On March 3, Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli of the Iraqi Health 
Ministry held a news conference accusing the U.S. of using 
internationally banned chemical weapons, including nerve gas, during the 
assault. Do you have any more information on that?

DAHR JAMAIL: That report, actually, yes, I have read that and am aware 
of that. And it's just further confirmation of the fact that the -- 
another, related to that what the doctor said that I had interviewed was 
that he was willing to go in and try to dig up some of these bodies that 
they were forced to bury by the U.S. military there in Fallujah, because 
he said that he is 100% certain that these types of weapons had been 
used, and he, among so many other people inside the city, are pleading 
for an international investigation of the types of these -- of what 
illegal weapons were used there, because they are absolutely certain 
they were chemical weapons, cluster bombs, fleshettes, types of napalm 
and various other weapons, as well.

AMY GOODMAN: Dahr, on your blog, you continually talked about everyday 
Iraqis and the kind of obstacles they faced, what it was like just to 
live there. Give us that full picture that we so rarely can get.

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, the situation in Iraq is devastating. It's difficult 
to be there and see it day in and day out where there's no security 
whatsoever. There's complete lawlessness in the capital city and most 
other cities. The situation in the hospitals is an ongoing health care 
crisis. They're lacking medicines and basic supplies and things they 
need. Then we have the refugee situation where people are all over the 
city, hundreds of families in various places, trying to survive. It's 
really quite -- it's the ongoing refugee situation we have that -- over 
300,000 there. We have rampant fuel crisis going on where people are 
waiting one, sometimes two days, to fill the tanks of their cars. We 
have the military responding to the security situation by closing 
various streets in Baghdad. At least 100 streets are now closed in the 
capital city to try to bring some sort of order to the situation. Gas 
lines stretching sometimes between six and ten miles. People waiting 
between one and two days to fill the tanks of their cars. Gasoline is 
being rationed. Even plates one day, odd the next. People are allowed 
seven-and-a-half gallons when they fill their tanks. Electricity in the 
better parts of Baghdad is about eight hours. In most places, including 
up in the north in the Kurdistan region, we have three hours or less of 
electricity per day and infrastructure is in worse shape in all of the 
main areas than it was prior to the invasion.

AMY GOODMAN: We spoke with Giuliani Sgrena the other day, who was 
kidnapped in Iraq, and then ultimately as she was getting out, the U.S. 
military opened fire on her car, killing the Italian intelligence 
official who helped to get her out and wounding her. But just the danger 
every day of reporting unembedded for month after month, how did you do it?

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, the level of anxiety is extremely high. And I would 
do my best to fit in. I felt that no security was my security, and 
growing a beard and going out, varying the times I go out, and not 
advertising the fact that I am an American. And it is a very stressful 
situation, but if you are going to work in Iraq as a journalist, you 
have to leave your hotel, if you are going to do your job. So, it's an 
accepted risk by myself and other colleagues I know who preferred to 
operate that way, rather than staying in their hotels or just going to 
military press conferences or embedding with the military.

AMY GOODMAN: On this anniversary of the release of the photos, the 
Pentagon had had them for months before of the abuse of prisoners at Abu 
Ghraib, what was the effect of those photos in Iraq?

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, everyone in Iraq already knew that this sort of 
treatment was happening, from almost the beginning of the occupation and 
not just in Abu Ghraib, but in military detention facilities throughout 
the country. These reports had been coming in for months. People were 
very well aware of the fact that there was sexual abuse, physical 
violence, death, rape, this sort of a thing happening from the 
beginning. But when those photos came out, this confirmation and having 
it broadcast to the world just confirmed all of these beliefs by Iraqis, 
and it really demolished what credibility may have been left at that 
point for the occupation forces. That credibility was shattered with 
these photographs. And I want to be real clear that this situation is 
ongoing. It's not stopped. Just because the corporate media decided to 
show these photos and really talk about this story for a while, then 
they decide that, well, there's a few soldiers that are held 
responsible. Let's try the bad apples, and this is going to put the lid 
back on the situation. But that has not changed the fact that the number 
of prisoners in Iraq is increasing. It has increased dramatically in the 
last few months. And the type of treatment going on in the prisons is 
exactly the same as it was when those photos were released.

AMY GOODMAN: And where are the prisoners held, when you talk about the 
other detention facilities?

DAHR JAMAIL: At so many of the military detention -- military bases, 
there are detention facilities. For example, at Baghdad Airport, there's 
a large detention facility there. Iraqis in Baghdad call it Guantanamo 
Airport. Many other military installations such as one up near Tikrit, I 
know specifically that has a good sized detention facility. But they're 
really spread all around Iraq, even in many parts in the south.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Dahr Jamail. And he is just back from 
Iraq. There's some interesting news today. Downing Street has published 
the Attorney General's full advice on the legality of the Iraq war after 
part of it was leaked to the media. In the March 7, 2003, documents -- 
that was just before the invasion -- Lord Goldsmith told Tony Blair, a 
second U.N. resolution was the safest legal course. Ten days later his 
advice to Parliament raised no such concerns about legality. Michael 
Howard suggested M.P.s had been tricked into voting for war. Charles 
Kennedy urged Blair to come clean. Blair defended his actions. In the 
advice Lord Goldsmith warned there were a number of ways in which 
opponents of war could bring legal action. “We cannot be certain they 
would not succeed,” he said. “Adding a second resolution might be the 
way of preventing such legal action succeeding.” Lord Goldsmith 
continued, “Finally, I must stress that the lawfulness of military 
action depends not only on the existence of a legal basis, but also on 
the question of proportionality.” He added, “It must be proportionate to 
the objective of securing compliance with Iraq's disarmament.” That, a 
report from the B.B.C. today. Your response?

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, it's almost a moot point at this point, because it 
couldn't be any clearer that this invasion of Iraq and ensuing 
occupation have really nothing to do, at least if we go by Bush 
administration standards, nothing to do with what is legal, what is 
right, what is best for Iraqis, and certainly not what is best for this 
country. So, there are no weapons of mass destruction. There's no links 
with al Qaeda. There's no terrorist training camps there, anything like 
this. And now we have this ongoing occupation with no end in sight. 14 
permanent U.S. military bases there. Four done, ten more in the works. 
More money just sailed through the government to fund that. So, what is 
the point of even talking about legality at this point? It's very, very 
clear that this situation, and the Bush administration perpetuation of 
it has -- they really are not concerned with what's legal and what's right.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Dahr Jamail, just back from Iraq. What 
about the elections? What effect did they have on Iraqis? And you're 
talking about the situation being very bad right now. Did the elections 
improve anything, and do you hold out any hope now that this government 
is being constituted?

DAHR JAMAIL: I certainly want the situation in Iraq to improve in any 
way possible, because the devastation there is everywhere. It's really 
unbearable for Iraqis today, and certainly hope that the elections would 
bring about some sort of improvement, but to date, they have not. They 
only just very recently actually filled the cabinet position, so it took 
them 12 weeks to actually form a government. Now they have well under a 
year to attempt to agree and author a constitution. But the bottom line, 
I think, how do we judge if the elections were a success? Not by 
something -- the fact that something resembling elections occurred in 
Iraq, but rather, have they improved the life of Iraqis and brought 
about better security, bought about a solution to the gas crisis, bought 
about some solution to the 65% unemployment rate? Things like this, and 
to date, they have not. To date, they have -- situations on the ground 
just continue to deteriorate, a little by little, each passing day.

AMY GOODMAN: We have the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair, General Richard 
Myers saying, in terms of incidents, it's right about where it was a 
year ago, talking about the ability of the Iraqi resistance to wage 
attacks not diminishing over the past year. The U.S. reporting the 
number had decreased shortly before the election, but recent weeks have 
seen a surge in violence. Who is the resistance right now?

DAHR JAMAIL: Right now, the resistance is so many groups. It's really 
not the best thing to talk about it as one entity. It's really comprised 
of so many different groups. It definitely started out as mostly 
ex-military, Bremer essentially created the resistance when he disbanded 
the military and Ba'athists. But at this point it, it's more and more 
average Iraqis, people who have had family members killed and humiliated 
by occupation forces. It's not 100% Sunni. There are now some Shia 
members in it. And as far as foreign fighters, it's a very, very low 
percentage of those who are actually involved within the resistance.

AMY GOODMAN: Last week we had a debate between Naomi Klein and Erik 
Gustafson who was an Iraq war vet from ten years ago, Naomi Klein, the 
well-known author, writer, journalist, about whether the troops should 
withdraw immediately the U.S. troops, the so-called coalition troops. 
What effect do you think that would have?

DAHR JAMAIL: I think it would begin a process of Iraq becoming a truly 
sovereign nation. I think it would bring lesser casualties to the Iraqi 
people, because the U.S. military is the leading cause of death and 
suffering right now in Iraq. The majority of the deaths in Iraq under 
the occupation are at the hands of the U.S. military, primarily by U.S. 
warplanes dropping bombs on people's homes and neighborhoods. So, that 
would stop. That would help the situation on the ground. That would 
bring greater stability to the situation there. There would certainly be 
chaos. It would certainly -- the instability would continue, but I think 
talk of the U.S. pullout can’t occur without including the fact that all 
of the contracts on the ground there for the reconstruction would have 
to be reopened to bidding, giving Iraqi concerns first priority. They 
know how to rebuild their country. They have already done this. And 
they're not being allowed to do so at this time. And then, of course, 
full compensation paid to Iraqis who have suffered during the occupation.

AMY GOODMAN: Do people have a sense that that will happen?

DAHR JAMAIL: No. People are -- it's quite clear at this point, because 
people who voted that I interviewed did vote because they felt it was 
going to bring about an end to the occupation. And it's very clear at 
this point especially that this government has no intention of forcing 
the U.S. to put a timetable for withdrawal, so really it still looks as 
though there's no end in sight.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you plan, Dahr, to return to Iraq?

DAHR JAMAIL: I do plan to return. I am not entirely certain exactly as 
to when, but I will go back.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for joining us, as 
people follow the news now, from here in the United States. This 
weekend, May 1, there are also going to be a number of protests moving 
in on the 60th anniversary of the dropping of the bombs in Hiroshima, 
protesting war in New York in Central Park. There's going to be a march 
from the U.N. to Central Park. What do you think it's important for 
people to understand?

DAHR JAMAIL: That this administration has no intention of withdrawing 
from Iraq, and the only way that this is going to happen is if they are 
forced to withdraw, because they're certainly not going to do it on 
their own volition.

AMY GOODMAN: Dahr Jamail, just back from Iraq. His website is 
DahrJamailIraq.com. And we will also link to it at democracynow.org. And 
you spell it DahrJamailIraq.com, since so many people call and write to 
us and ask, “How do we find that site?” Thank you.

DAHR JAMAIL: Thank you. Amy.

www.democracynow.org