[Peace-discuss] The people

[n.dahlheim at mchsi.com]

Thank you for your comment, John.  I would also like to add that a people such as ourselves really have 
a higher moral duty for not only criticism but meaningful, peaceful action.  Where were we when the 
people of MOVE were liquidated and the Philadelphia SWAT in conjunction with a militarized FBI 
incinerated a whole city block and killed 20 people?  Where were we when the FBI in conjunction with 
the ATF and the military massacred the innocents at the Branch Davidian Church in Waco--this time on 
national TV?  These are but two examples from the recent past that should havd sparked an outcry 
from a decent society demanding justice for groups like MOVE and the Branch Davidians who wanted to 
live in freedom and peace only to find themselves flattened by govt jackboot.  And now we are going to 
stop the Leviathan as it devours its children with ever greater speed, power, and rapacity?  I think we 
have to think carefully about this.  The people are sovereign---but only in principle.  Our actions must 
prove it and we must use that sovereignty wisely to build a society based on justice, equality, and 
freedom.  The history of man speaks against this and the tragic nature of existence in this dimension 
will likely still teach us many harsh lessons about the meaning of freedom.  I sometimes ponder the 
possibility that perhaps man is programmed to socialize in oppressive societies where the vast majority 
are consigned to servitude in some fashion and a given elite accrues most of the power and wealth 
through coercion and violence.  Maybe this sheds further light on the meditation of Rousseau that "Man 
is born free yet everywhere he is in chains."  However, in contrast to Rousseau man's freedom will not 
be found in the collective of the general will.  I think the answer is something different, and I don't have 
it formulated...  But, the inner turmoil and deliberation necessary to answer this question is far more 
important for each of us---our culture clearly does not promote this.   The Super Bowl and American 
Idol offer themselves as glossy, simulacral substitutes.


----------------------  Original Message:  ---------------------
From:    "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
To:      Bob Illyes <illyes at uiuc.edu>,n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
Cc:      Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The people 
Date:    Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:56:24 +0000

> At 03:41 PM 7/23/2007, n.dahlheim at mchsi.com wrote:
> 
> >The people are sovereign---I agree with that in principle.  But, I don't 
> >think the masses will translate this
> >principle into meaningful action.  That will require people acting with 
> >responsibility.  People will need to
> >be organized and responsible...  Something people will not do easily.  We 
> >are way, way behind the 8-ball
> >here as a nation in having an informed, organized populace eager to fight 
> >government corruption.
> 
> 
> It's a nice theory.  I can't concede, however, the "fact" of the people's 
> sovereignty.
> 
> Perhaps the proper question is, will we the sovereign people of America 
> have to become as desperately poor and oppressed as the East Germans were 
> before we rise up and overthrow the corrupt tyrants who rule us?
> 
> And there are other examples where your illustration doesn't hold true, 
> Bob.  In Haiti, much of Central and South America, and most of Africa, the 
> "sovereign" people have been brutally oppressed for hundreds of years, 
> first by outside colonial powers and more recently by their own home-grown 
> dictators in alliance with corporate imperialism.  What does "sovereign" 
> mean, in practice, when you're desperately poor and oppressed?  It doesn't 
> put food on the table.
> 
> You, Bob, speak as one who has never really known want, never been 
> threatened with brutal repression and death merely for daring to express 
> his beliefs.  And that's why I agree with Nick...too many Americans are 
> surfeit with material goods and a false sense of security to rise up 
> against their oppressors.  It ain't gonna happen here.
> 
> John Wason
> 
> 
> 
> >----------------------  Original Message:  ---------------------
> >From:    Bob Illyes <illyes at uiuc.edu>
> >To:      peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >Subject: [Peace-discuss] The people
> >Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:37:07 +0000
> >
> > > The people are sovereign, Nick. This is not an abstract concept. It is a
> > > fact. The DNC and RNC know this, and they dread that the people might
> > > realize it, because if the people realized that they were in charge, they
> > > would act, and the folks in the DNC and RNC would be looking for useful
> > > employment.
> > >
> > > Revolution is not required. In East Germany, the people just showed up in
> > > the streets. As far as I know, no shot was fired. Their argument was not
> > > with communism, it was with corruption. The bad guys filled suitcases with
> > > money and left town in a hurry. They knew that the people were sovereign.
> > >
> > > Bob
>