[Peace-discuss] Slavery and oil...

[John W.]

At 03:30 PM 3/15/2007, Morton K. Brussel wrote:

>Reply to Dave,  and Bob:
>
>I'm afraid the logic here is (also) faulty: "No Hitler, no Holocaust" 
>simply means that Hitler was a necessary actor in the event, although he 
>may not have been a sufficient actor/cause. Similarly, one can say that 
>the issue of slavery was indeed a necessary aspect/cause for the Civil 
>War. The "issue of slavery" involved diverse factors, economic, racial, 
>perhaps others, but without that institution one may well surmise that the 
>Civil War would not have occurred.
>
>"No oil, no war" is in the same category, I believe, as many others have 
>pointed out.
>
>And although I admire Bertrand Russel, the peremptory quote below is not 
>one of his most cogent. Propositions may involve various clauses and 
>factors, some of which may be true and the others false, so

>
>--mkb


The Blindmen and the Elephant
by <http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:John_Godfrey_Saxe>John Godfrey Saxe


It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind)
That each by observation
Might satisfy the mind.

The first approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side
At once began to bawl:
"Bless me, it seems the Elephant
Is very like a wall".

The second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, "Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear".

The third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake."

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!




>On Mar 15, 2007, at 2:55 PM, David Green wrote:
>
>That reminds me of another bit of historical nonsense that has pretty much 
>become conventional wisdom: "No Hitler, no Holocaust." If one buys into 
>the faulty logic that Hitler therefore caused the Holocaust, then you 
>don't have to deal with all the other factors.
>
>
>DG
>
>
>Bob Illyes <<mailto:illyes at uiuc.edu>illyes at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>Chuck and Ron have done a good job of covering the complexities
>of the motivations that led to the Civil War. One of the first
>things you (usually) learn when you take history in college is
>that the notion that the Civil War was principally about slavery
>is a myth. Zinn puts it well in Chuck's quote.
>
>Much of America's commonly accepted history is actually a myth, and
>one that Zinn has done much to debunk (if you haven't read his
>People's History, I highly recommend it). Although I respect America
>greatly, we are not anywhere nearly as noble as most Americans
>believe.
>
>One of my favorite Bertrand Russell quotes is "any given proposition
>is either true, false, or nonsense." It is the nonsense we need to
>beware of, because it is the most dangerous. For example, the
>proposition that if a particular factor that led to a war were absent,
>and the war were then prevented, then that factor is the cause of the
>war. This is rather like saying that if you remove someone's liver
>and they cease living, then the liver is the cause of life.
>Nonsense, of course.
>
>Ron listed a several other factors leading to the invasion of Iraq.
>Let me add a couple more. The "free" market folks thought that Iraq
>government properties could be acquired at fire-sale prices, as
>happened in East Germany when the wall came down. This these ill-advised
>folks saw as good. US oil companies would benefit by the destruction
>of the middle East oil fields, because the price of their oil would
>go through the roof. But most importantly, in my opinion, is the
>defense-industry profiteers desire for perpetual war. Perhaps you
>notice that greed is at work in all of these? If you thought
>greed was not as serious a sin as murder, think again. It's a chick-
>and-egg problem.
>
>During the Vietnam war, I met an occasional "lifer" soldier who was
>happy with the war because it led to more frequent promotions. I
>couldn't believe my ears. Greed is sick stuff. Killing to get a raise?
>
>Sorry to have missed today's demonstration. I'm running a fever and
>staying in doors.
>
>Bob
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