[Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year Reflection

[jenny goodwine]

I know I've often seen American flags with peace signs replacing the
stars; perhaps utilizing these would help to establish the anti-war
movement's message of what we believe the flag should stand for (read:
peace, democracy, freedom).  It would properly combine our message of
peace, as well as patriotism - a patriotism which does not have blind
loyalty in our government, but one which questions when atrocities are
being said in all of America's name.

Such a flag is seen here:

http://www.wnpj.org/images/peace_flag_in_janesville_stand_up_for_peace-2797_640x480.jpg

However, I am not entirely sure how easily accessible small versions
of these flags would be...


- jennygoodwine

On 3/22/07, Stuart Levy <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> [Note, I'm trimming the long long Cc list -- removing some people I'm pretty
> sure are on the peace-discuss list already -- and including just peace-discuss,
> not peace.]
>
> On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 04:06:55AM -0700, Chuck Minne wrote:
> > I have learned that estimated numbers on either side of an issue are not to
> > be trusted, and that the peace folks can inflate them with the best. Now
> > while 700,000 might be a stunning number for preaching to the choir, I
> > don't think preaching to the choir is the point here. At least I presume
> > the point is proselytization, and for that, IMO 100,000 is a better number
> > (guesstimate.)  But candor might not be expected and be considered a sign of
> > weakness, so maybe 2,000,000 is better. Wishy-washy?
>
> We should use the best estimate available, and that is indeed approximately
> 650,000 Iraqi excess deaths between March 2003 and July 2006, according
> to a Johns Hopkins School of Public Health mortality survey published
> last fall, which sampled (interviewed) clusters of households at randomly
> selected locations all over Iraq.   They did not pick this number off the
> tops of their heads.
>
> See this summary:
>     http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html
>
> >   (Just from the numbers' standpoint, 700,000 is roughly 400 per day. I don't think that has happened. But, who knows? I sure don't.)
>
> Clearly there are many, many more people dying in Iraq
> (by military action, by other Iraqis, by lack of public health, ...)
> than those we hear about directly in the news.
> Over 90% of those killed were reported to have died by violence.
>
> Clearly too, if the best estimate was ~650000 eight months ago, it should be
> higher now; but in the absence of a sound basis for saying how much higher,
> I think we should still cite the Johns Hopkins figure when reporting
> the lethal effect of this war.
>
> > Pete Rhomberg <rhomberger3000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   The ratio is much higher: currently, the Iraqi death tool is estimated
> > at at least 700,000 (with over 1 million additional Iraqis displaced).
> > US Death toll is a little over 3,300 (I'm sorry I don't have the exact
> > figure).
> >
> > Chuck Minne wrote:
> > > This seems like a nice idea to me. What is the death ratio? Something
> > > like 100,000 to 3,000 or 100 to 3?
>
>
> ... While I'm posting this, I'll stick my oar in the flagmire too.
> I think it'd be a fine thing if the peace movement were to work on
> reclaiming the American flag as a symbol representing the
> American ideals we'd like our country to follow, and not just as a symbol
> used by the Right of American power and faultless good, as it has been.
>
> I agree with Carl Estabrook that intention alone isn't enough to
> reclaim it.  If we show a flag out of context, it will likely not be
> taken as we mean it.  But I'd happily carry an American flag along with
> a Peace Is Patriotic sign.
>
>    Stuart
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