[Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor

Fri Apr 4 01:24:45 CDT 2008

All I can tell you Robert is I have never seen David be anything but
respectful when I have seen him in a group setting. This may be a subject
where we need to agree to disagree.

Peace, Marti

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Marti, you are comparing apples and oranges. As a new Catholic, I
> understand that there are many things to criticize the Church's recent
> actions or misdeeds. However, i do not condemn all Catholics for staying in
> the church because of the sex abuse scandals. If you knew anything about the
> Jewish community, the saying goes "two Jews, three opinions." I know many
> Jews who have severely criticized the state of Israel, but have not gone to
> the extremes of calling the Jewish liberation movement racist. Its about
> difference of opinions. Despite what David may think, there is room for
> dissent within the Jewish community. Go to a Torah study and see how heated
> the study gets! Its not like your fundamentalist churches where the preacher
> tells you to be in lockstep with him or you go to hell.
> Attacking Zionism and the right of existence of the Jewish state is not
> the equivalence of a local pastor committing a crime or misdeed. Im sorry, I
> disagree with that assertion.
> Robert
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:53:19 -0500
> From: martiwilki at gmail.com
> To: prorobert8 at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor
> CC: davegreen84 at yahoo.com; peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>
>
> I was raised in a Christian church. Does this mean I'm not allowed to be
> critical when a segment of Christian society engages in misconduct?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  David, you have been very belligerent and hostile to the Jewish
> community! The fact that you have the audacity to insult Jewish leaders by
> calling them fascists is beyond belief. Your paranoid style at the "New
> Anti-Semitism" lecture where you accused people like me of snickering at you
> is beyond the pale my friend. I know of many left-wing opponents of Israel
> who are more genteel and diplomatic than you are! Do the Jewish community
> and society a favor and just quit mentioning that you are Jewish every time
> you want to bash Israel, the Jewish community and individual Jewish
> organizations and individuals. From my time at Sinai Temple, people have
> been extremely tolerant of you, even Rabbi Klein stood up for you in the
> temple bulletin when someone suggested that you be excommunicated. Have you
> returned the favor, NO! In fact, please be a real man and either fully
> renounce any ties to the Jewish community, or please shut up! If I were a
> pro-abortion Catholic. I do not need to mention that I belong to the church
> of Rome to justify my point. You have a manic hatred of Israel and the
> Jewish people. Ok, admit it, but do not qualify your self-loathing with the
> fact that you have the blood of the people you think are stupid, fascist,
> racist, and corrupt.
> Its your choice, do what Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky did and renounce their
> Judaism or please shut up. Being a self-hating Jew is the cowards way out!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:14:49 -0700
> From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor
> To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>
>
> Jenifer,
>
> We're not talking here about a KKK rally. Hillel puts on a face as
> tolerant and liberal, and of course the favorite two words are "hate
> speech." If there is such a thing as hate speech, I witnessed it on Tuesday,
> both with the speaker and afterwards. There is an opportunity here to put
> them in the spotlight, which is exactly what the local Zionist element does
> not want, except completely on their own terms. That is what should be done.
>
> David
>
> *Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> David,
> Of course what you've outlined SHOULD be the case in open-to-the public
> events, regardless of the specifics -- i e what the issues are, who's on
> which side of the issue, how many are on each side of the issue ... but we
> all know that's not what happens in Real Life. In Real Life, a spokesperson
> for the majority (or one or two strong-willed vocal types who assume they're
> speaking for the majority) shouts down or otherwise intimidates (and
> ultimately silences) dissent. Whether it's Hillel, or e. g. a bar
> where customers have honked off the management, the question now is whether
> you/they have the right to attend open-to-the-public events that are in part
> covered by public funds (public tax dollars at work for police and fire
> protection, etc) if they choose to return, or whether the establishment has
> a legal right to deny entrance when the only "crime" was voicing a
> contradictary opinion.
>  --Jenifer
>
> *David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> At an event open to the public, there are no limitations on respectful
> sppech, period. There is no call for an intimidating atmosphere, period. It
> should be understood that students who patronize Hillel are free to speak
> their minds, period. It should be understood that such an atmosphere for
> them is emotionally harmful and intellectually stunting, period. It should
> be understood that when Hillel has community events, it should treat
> attendees respectfully, on the basis of rights and on the moral basis in
> terms of treatment of invited "outsiders," period. It should be understood
> that Hillel has no call to support any political doctrine or view in their
> role as "campus center for Jewish life," period. It should be understood
> that Jewish organizations like Hillel (and Jewish Federation, and Sinai
> Temple, and the Program for "Jewish Culture and Society" have been hijacked
> by a fascist mentality, period.
>
> *Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> David,
> Fwiw, I think you were right in EVERYTHING you did, including leaving --
> unless you were going to charge somebody w/ assault. It was their gig (and
> venue), and (obviously) alternative points of view were neither wanted nor
> permitted. Awkward for your son but no protection for you, so I'd say check
> whether you have a legal right to be there before trying to enter in the
> future.
> I hope yr letter gets published in both papers.
>  --Jenifer
>
> *David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> Yes. I Ieft before they arrived, since I was intimidated and afraid there
> would be charges. In fact, I should have called the police as soon as I was
> shouted down in order to assert my right to speak and put them on the
> defensive. I allowed myself to become involved in an altercation in which
> the context was clear, but the responsibility was not. Of course, they would
> never press charges against me. My son leads Friday night services at
> Hillel.
>
> DG
>
> *Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I have a question - were the police contacted at the time the
> confrontation occurred?
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:10 AM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> This was sent to the N-G and DI:
>
> On April 1st David Makovsky, a Zionist think tanker, gave a half-hour
> public talk at Campus Hillel, which consisted of twisted invective against
> Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims, and self-promoting insider politics. He
> then entertained four non-controversial questions, responding to each with a
> rambling 10-minute answer. He decided to end after an hour and fifteen
> minutes of what had been announced as a two-hour event. There was no
> moderator to promote fair audience participation or civil discourse.
> At that point I interjected an alternative perspective regarding
> Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation. My comments were substantive
> and not personal. I was immediately shouted down, told to shut up, and told
> to leave by several members of the local Zionist element, including
> Professors Fred Gottheil and Ehud Yairi. A physical altercation subsequent
> to this event, not initiated by me, led to a visit to my house later that
> evening from a police officer, telling me that I was henceforth banned from
> Hillel.
> I was not aware that Hillel is a private residence owned by the Zionist
> element whose right is to determine who can speak and who must leave.  I
> was not aware that Jewish perspectives are limited to those that support
> Zionist militarism, racism, occupation, and apartheid. I am, however, aware
> that local institutional Jewish leadership of all types has facilitated an
> atmosphere of arrogance and condescension in response to opponents of
> Zionist bigotry. They are ultimately responsible for the repressive and
> intimidating atmosphere that pervades and corrupts the local Jewish
> community.
> David Green
>
>  ------------------------------
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> ------------------------------
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