[Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor

Fri Apr 4 12:22:55 CDT 2008

Robert, you don't deserve a serious response, but here's one anyway, in respect for others:

  In general, my background is only relevant in explaining my interest in and passion for this subject, and the responsibility I feel for presenting alternative Jewish voices, as well as the disgust I feel regarding the (institutional) Jewish community being identified with what is, pound for pound, the most sadistic nation in the world. 

  To serious audiences, I don't mention my Jewishness except in passing, or if asked. In those contexts, ridiculous accusations of anti-semitism/self-hating are not an issue, and neither is my background, in any substantive way.

  In the Hillel context, individuals know me as Jewish, especially the ones who shouted me down. I don't have to mention it. But it's relevant. If an Arab woman wearing a scarf had spoken critically at Hillel, she would not have received such a vitriolic response--or any, just silent contempt, perhaps a shred of discomfort. As a Jew, I do, because I'm a known quantilty, and the antagonism against me is just ready to blow, as it did in Tuesday. My feelings toward the local commandants also contributed to the situation--let's be honest. In that context, they feel safe and hyper-empowered to control the situation, not to mention throw tantrums and behave like two year olds.

  Anyway, it's important to stress that Zionists hate anti-Zionist Jews much more than anti-Zionist non-Jews, just as liberals hate the left much more than the right. In both cases, it's because they're much more threatened by those who would expose "rational" beliefs as ethnocentric, racist, and violent. Liberals and Zionists are much more comfortable being in the position of wearing the mantle of "moderation" and "compassion" vis a vis the right, however vague those boundaries might be these days. Thus Zionists spend much more energy on Norman Finkelstein than they do on libertarian critics of aid to Israel and general warmongering. An analogy would be hatred of southern segregationists for white dissidents more than African-Americans, who were dismissed as powerless children until they really started to fight back.

  Thus my Jewishness, ironically, helps to explain the reaction at Hillel. They are much more threatened from the inside and the outside--they've been pretty successful at instilling fear regarding criticism of Israel in the gentile population, through reference to anti-Semitism, the Holocaust, etc. You can't do that with Jews.

  The struggle will move forward as that fear is replaced by outrage, and anti-Zionist Jews no longer feel that they have to expend energy making anti-Zionism "safe" for gentiles. The struggle cannot move forward solely on the basis of either the small number of anti-Zionist Jews, or of those who emphasize the Israel Lobby. It will have to come from the broader left and antiwar communities. This is, after all, partly a struggle against ethnocentrism and sectarianism, as well as racism and militarism. It's also inseparable from the struggle against U.S. foreign policy, obviously. In fact, it's the soft underbelly of U.S. foreign policy, and can be used to open eyes to the viciousness of the whole enterprise (while stressing that Israel is not at the bottom of this, we are).

  DG

Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com> wrote:
      .hmmessage P  {  margin:0px;  padding:0px  }  body.hmmessage  {  FONT-SIZE: 10pt;  FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma  }    Enlighten me then Mr. Green. What does "beyond the pale" comes from? Look, you blanket Zionism as some monolithic ideology. However, you fail to tell people how Zionism is diverse in its thinking. Zionism is more than a political ideology. The fact that modern Hebrew is in existence is due to the existence of cultural Zionism. You can criticize Zionism or Judaism all you want to. But, all I am asking you to do is to stop qualifying your criticism with the fact that you were born Jewish. That means hardly anything if you are not giving back to the Jewish community in one way shape or form. I am not saying that some Jewish leaders are beyond criticism! I do not like the fact that a lot of Jewish leaders, in particular Abraham Foxman, whines about the Christian Right on one day, then the next, holds a dinner in honor of Jerry Falwell, and John Hagee. It seems like
 in these cases, there is no consistency. One can not bemoan a "theocracy", than honor or cozy up to those same "theocrats."
I would like to hear why this is happening?
As much as I despise your way of thinking David, I do agree that you should not be banned from any place merely for expressing a contrary viewpoint than the majority. Unfortunately, this happened to me in school when I went to a lecture by Gloria Steinem and during the Q and A, I addressed her hypocrisy in decrying marriage as a form of slavery for women, but when an extremely wealthy man came around, she decided to "become enslaved" and got married. I was physically assaulted and told to leave a public place. Unfortunately, Hillel is a private entity, they can move people out if they want to. I would not have done it.  It only makes one side look reactionary. Again, I was not there, so i can only go by what different people say. As well, folks in AWARE who were not there should not rush to judgment until they have all of the facts down.

---------------------------------
  Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:35:21 -0700
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor
To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net

Really powerful stuff, Robert. Please let me know about the 3 opinions about Zionism that you hear in Torah study from 10 or 12 people. By the way, do you know where the expression "beyond the Pale" comes from?

Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com> wrote:       .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P  {padding:0px;}  .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage  {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}    David, you have been very belligerent and hostile to the Jewish community! The fact that you have the audacity to insult Jewish leaders by calling them fascists is beyond belief. Your paranoid style at the "New Anti-Semitism" lecture where you accused people like me of snickering at you is beyond the pale my friend. I know of many left-wing opponents of Israel who are more genteel and diplomatic than you are! Do the Jewish community and society a favor and just quit mentioning that you are Jewish every time you want to bash Israel, the Jewish community and individual Jewish organizations and individuals. From my time at Sinai Temple, people have been extremely tolerant of you, even Rabbi Klein stood up for you in the temple bulletin when someone suggested that you be excommunicated. Have you returned the
 favor, NO! In fact, please be a real man and either fully renounce any ties to the Jewish community, or please shut up! If I were a pro-abortion Catholic. I do not need to mention that I belong to the church of Rome to justify my point. You have a manic hatred of Israel and the Jewish people. Ok, admit it, but do not qualify your self-loathing with the fact that you have the blood of the people you think are stupid, fascist, racist, and corrupt.
Its your choice, do what Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky did and renounce their Judaism or please shut up. Being a self-hating Jew is the cowards way out!

---------------------------------
  Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:14:49 -0700
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter to the editor
To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net

  Jenifer,

  We're not talking here about a KKK rally. Hillel puts on a face as tolerant and liberal, and of course the favorite two words are "hate speech." If there is such a thing as hate speech, I witnessed it on Tuesday, both with the speaker and afterwards. There is an opportunity here to put them in the spotlight, which is exactly what the local Zionist element does not want, except completely on their own terms. That is what should be done.

  David

Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    David,
  Of course what you've outlined SHOULD be the case in open-to-the public events, regardless of the specifics -- i e what the issues are, who's on which side of the issue, how many are on each side of the issue ... but we all know that's not what happens in Real Life. In Real Life, a spokesperson for the majority (or one or two strong-willed vocal types who assume they're speaking for the majority) shouts down or otherwise intimidates (and ultimately silences) dissent. Whether it's Hillel, or e. g. a bar where customers have honked off the management, the question now is whether you/they have the right to attend open-to-the-public events that are in part covered by public funds (public tax dollars at work for police and fire protection, etc) if they choose to return, or whether the establishment has a legal right to deny entrance when the only "crime" was voicing a contradictary opinion.
   --Jenifer    

David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  At an event open to the public, there are no limitations on respectful sppech, period. There is no call for an intimidating atmosphere, period. It should be understood that students who patronize Hillel are free to speak their minds, period. It should be understood that such an atmosphere for them is emotionally harmful and intellectually stunting, period. It should be understood that when Hillel has community events, it should treat attendees respectfully, on the basis of rights and on the moral basis in terms of treatment of invited "outsiders," period. It should be understood that Hillel has no call to support any political doctrine or view in their role as "campus center for Jewish life," period. It should be understood that Jewish organizations like Hillel (and Jewish Federation, and Sinai Temple, and the Program for "Jewish Culture and Society" have been hijacked by a fascist mentality, period.

Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com> wrote:     David,
  Fwiw, I think you were right in EVERYTHING you did, including leaving -- unless you were going to charge somebody w/ assault. It was their gig (and venue), and (obviously) alternative points of view were neither wanted nor permitted. Awkward for your son but no protection for you, so I'd say check whether you have a legal right to be there before trying to enter in the future. 
  I hope yr letter gets published in both papers. 
   --Jenifer

David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    Yes. I Ieft before they arrived, since I was intimidated and afraid there would be charges. In fact, I should have called the police as soon as I was shouted down in order to assert my right to speak and put them on the defensive. I allowed myself to become involved in an altercation in which the context was clear, but the responsibility was not. Of course, they would never press charges against me. My son leads Friday night services at Hillel.

  DG

Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com> wrote:
  I have a question - were the police contacted at the time the confrontation occurred? 

  On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:10 AM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    This was sent to the N-G and DI:

  On April 1st David Makovsky, a Zionist think tanker, gave a half-hour public talk at Campus Hillel, which consisted of twisted invective against Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims, and self-promoting insider politics. He then entertained four non-controversial questions, responding to each with a rambling 10-minute answer. He decided to end after an hour and fifteen minutes of what had been announced as a two-hour event. There was no moderator to promote fair audience participation or civil discourse.
  At that point I interjected an alternative perspective regarding Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation. My comments were substantive and not personal. I was immediately shouted down, told to shut up, and told to leave by several members of the local Zionist element, including Professors Fred Gottheil and Ehud Yairi. A physical altercation subsequent to this event, not initiated by me, led to a visit to my house later that evening from a police officer, telling me that I was henceforth banned from Hillel.
  I was not aware that Hillel is a private residence owned by the Zionist element whose right is to determine who can speak and who must leave.  I was not aware that Jewish perspectives are limited to those that support Zionist militarism, racism, occupation, and apartheid. I am, however, aware that local institutional Jewish leadership of all types has facilitated an atmosphere of arrogance and condescension in response to opponents of Zionist bigotry. They are ultimately responsible for the repressive and intimidating atmosphere that pervades and corrupts the local Jewish community.
  David Green

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