[Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for
an immediate end to the war...
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Fri Aug 1 13:16:04 CDT 2008
Walter,
I think that the ballot access laws do indeed closely enough approximate
an outlawing
of non-major party candidates that further action that spells it out
clearly would be counterproductive. 8-<:^)
No need to make it de jure fascism as long as we have de facto
Benito-LITE on both sides of the two party combine.
(It's the LITE version that appears to be "Free" and comes with all
those annoying ads.)
Most of the sheep have no idea about how the system works against their
actually having a voice in the process.
As George Carlin said "nobody notices, nobody cares". There really is a
strong need for those civics lessons.
As the system exists, 3rd and 4th and 5th parties bring in useful voices
but in the end it is the count of votes that makes the short term
difference.
We dont need to be giving up the fight for alternative voting methods if
we want to turn out
incumbents and to break the back of the two party sectarian system.
Wayne
Walter Pituc wrote:
> How is looking at all your choices and voting for the person that most
> closely resembles your stance of the issues "gotcha games"?
>
> What are we suppose to say to non-major party candidate? That they
> cannot participate in the democratic process? Why don't we just make a
> law that outlaws non-major party candidates and make it de jure
> fascism already.
>
> -Walter
>
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Jenifer Cartwright
> <jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> This is too SERIOUS to play these nyah nyah gotcha games. Look at
> the whole picture and the projection into the future if McCain wins.
> --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Abram /<tabram at gmail.com
> <mailto:tabram at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
>
> From: Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com <mailto:tabram at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who
> calls for an immediate end to the war...
> To: jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>,
> kmedina at illinois.edu <mailto:kmedina at illinois.edu>, "Neil
> Parthun" <lennybrucefan at gmail.com
> <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com>>, "peace-discuss"
> <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 12:17 PM
>
>
> Actually, in Illinois our choices are:
>
> McCain - R
> Obama - D
> McKinney - G
> Nader - I
> Barr - L
> Baldwin - C
> Polachek - New
>
> It doesn't have to be a dichotomy. How brands of cereal do we have?
> Do we go to a grocery store thinking Frosted Flakes or NOT-Frosted
> Flakes? Isn't it more important to have choice for president than
> cereal?
>
> I'm all for electoral reform so our system is more representative of
> our citizenry. But when I tried to do that locally, it was blocked by
> the Democrats themselves! Plus, they didn't stand up to election
> fraud in Florida, Ohio, and elsewhere. I guess it's easier to
> scapegoat than take responsibility for their own failures.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On 8/1/08, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > Folks,
> > Our choice is not McCain or McKinney... or McCain or (shudder) Nader (aka
> > person who sought right-wing Repub funding for his last run)... or McCain
> or
> > Kucinich... or McCain or Paul!! Our choice is McCain or NOT McCain, aka
> > Obama. It's too late for idealism. The moment to get real is now.
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com <mailto:tabram at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Abram <tabram at gmail.com <mailto:tabram at gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an
> > immediate end to the war...
> > To: jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: kmedina at illinois.edu <mailto:kmedina at illinois.edu>, "Neil Parthun"
> <lennybrucefan at gmail.com <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com>>,
> > "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
> > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:46 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > Look, a plethora of Democrats directly voted for the war. Nader never
> voted
> > yes to invade Iraq. He and the Green Party aren't the ones who
> continues to
> > the fund the war (that would be the Republicans and Democrats). It's
> > delusional to pretend the Democrats weren't complicit in the wars.
> >
> > I agree that there's a time for idealism and a time for reality. But
> I
> > disagree about which is which. It's idealistic and fantastical to
> believe
> > that a candidate (Obama) who has continually stated his support for more
> > war, lack of support for a true single-payer non-corporate welfare health
> > care system, and expansion of coal and nuclear power plants is going to go
> > back on these statements and financiers. I'm going for reality, which
> is
> > based on the statements and positions of the candidates and how they align
> > with my own vision for America. Voting for a candidate that makes
> > statements opposing your own values is permission to continue doing so.
> For
> > those still clinging to the hope of the Democratic Party, verbally
> > criticizing the policies of their candidates gives them a reason to
> > reconsider. A blank check will not. Either Obama's positions truly
> are
> > awful, or he is lying to the American people with the intention of
> carrying
> > out his true
> > hidden progressive agenda. Aren't we mad at Bush for lying to us
> about
> > Iraq? Is there a double standard for the Democrats? Can they lie to us
> all
> > they want and whisper sweet nothings into our ears and we'll continue
> to
> > fill their bubbles on the ballot? I hope not.
> >
> > Former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney received the presidential nomination
> > of Green Party several weeks ago and will be on the ballot in Illinois. I
> > urge all to consider voting for her as well. She wants our troops home
> now,
> > all of them, from every corner of the globe. She supports a true
> > single-payer universal health care system and an aggressive strategy to
> > address global warming. She's not in the pockets of any corporations
> > either. If you support these things, vote reality. Vote McKinney.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Jenifer Cartwright
> <jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, Nader said no difference betw Gore and Bush, and look what that got
> > us. Okay, you and I (and Hedges) are still alive and well, but the
> millions
> > of Iraqis dead or displaced, the thousands of Americans dead or disabled,
> > those who have lost their homes, jobs, health care and other benefits beg
> to
> > differ.
> >
> > Are there more similarities than we'd like between Obama and McCain,
> esp wrt
> > exiting Iraq? Yes. Are there also huge differences on other key issues,
> esp
> > domestic ones? Yes.
> >
> > There is a time for idealism and a time for reality. That time is now. On
> > behalf of those sharing the planet w/ you, choose reality... and continue
> to
> > work for the ideal -- you'll have a better chance of getting closer to
> that
> > w/ Obama.
> > --Jenifer
> >
> > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Neil Parthun <lennybrucefan at gmail.com <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > From: Neil Parthun <lennybrucefan at gmail.com <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Hedges: only a candidate who calls for an
> > immediate end to the war...
> > To: kmedina at illinois.edu <mailto:kmedina at illinois.edu>
> > Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
> > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 2:23 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As the late, great Eugene V. Debs stated: "I'd rather vote for
> something I
> > want and not get it than vote for something I don't and get it."
> >
> >
> > McCain is open about his imperialism in the Middle East. People have, and
> > rightly so, criticized McCain's imperialist linguistics/policies.
> However,
> > it is a misconception and disingenuous to state that the wars in Iraq and
> > Afghanistan are "Republican wars" or "Bush's
> wars".
> >
> >
> > Let's not forget that Congressional Republicans and Democrats
> authorized the
> > use of force, authorized the Nuremburg Tribunal violating invasion of a
> > country that did not attack us and has continued to fund an illegal,
> immoral
> > and imperialist occupation. The Democrats seized Congressional power in
> > 2006 with the masses' dissatisfaction with the Iraq war. What have
> they
> > done since they've seized power? A whole lot of nothing major to end
> the
> > war that they were given the power to stop.
> >
> >
> > The idea that Nader is evil is absolutely laughable and an unfair
> > characterization. All left of center votes are not already prescribed to
> > the Democratic party. As I watch a party continue to fund an illegal,
> > imperialist war...As I watch a party sell out the 4th Amendment while
> > accepting AT&T funding/gifts for the DNC...As I watch a party given
> the
> > power to end the war yet do nothing...As I watch a party who watches
> > flagrant high crimes and misdemeanors taking place on such an epic and
> open
> > scale that it boggles the imagination and does nothing. As I watch all of
> > this, it is quite clear why people vote for 3rd party candidates. They
> are
> > tired of their interests being sold out after being co-opted (see the
> > anti-war mandate of '06, for example).
> >
> >
> > If anybody wants to place the blame on so-called spoilers, blame it the
> > Democratic party and Obama. These candidates need to earn the votes of
> > people. Obama's candidacy should have a warning signal: This
> candidate
> > makes wide right turns. Obama is for a continued military presence in the
> > Middle East despite the Rand Corporation stating that a military operation
> > is not the optimum way to combat terrorism. Obama is for the "White
> Man's
> > Burden" style of imperialism -- the idea that we can't dare leave
> > Afghanistan or Iraq because the Afghanis and the Iraqis sure as Hell
> don't
> > know how or can't form their own government and security themselves.
> I sure
> > as Hell can't vote for that.
> >
> >
> > Obama has also stated that he would attack and bomb Pakistan if they
> didn't
> > do as we said. He's supported the apartheid regime in Israel.
> He's for
> > aggressive wars as well and seems to be for the "Bush Doctrine"
> of
> > aggressive wars but in alternative forums (Afghanistan/Pakistan/Palestine,
> > not Iraq).
> >
> >
> > But we're supposed to hold our nose and vote Obama? The idea of
> lesser
> > evilism has led to numerous problems and made the Democratic party the
> > opportunist that capitalizes on outrage for their own electoral gain
> rather
> > than fixing the problems that so many are concerned about. It is the
> > graveyard of social movements.
> >
> >
> > I agree with Hedges: I can't vote for a candidate that doesn't
> call for an
> > immediate end to this blatant imperialism.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is only this moment,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We absolutely have to refuse to attribute any kind of permanency to that
> > which is simply because it is.
> > [angela v. davis, 1944-]
> >
> >
> > The point is, the only real tools we have are our eyes and our heads. Its
> > not the act of seeing with our own eyes alone; its correctly comprehending
> > what we see.
> > [warren ellis, 1968-]_______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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