[Peace-discuss] socializing an industry -- good but also bad

Wed Dec 10 11:52:01 CST 2008

Greed should be our motto, I guess. What some define as "liberty"---  
to extract the most you can at the expense of your less well endowed  
neighbors.

I would suggest that Sweden is a better example, sadly until  
recently, of what people collectively can do in caring for others.  
The U.S. and its undeniable wealth (largely due to the native  
essential resources of its land) has come at a terrible cost to  
others (slavery, colonialism, wars, exploitation, and now the poor  
here in the USA). Most socialists repudiate what occurred ("sadly")  
under Stalin and Mao, and advocate some kind of social(ist?)  
democracy, as practiced more or less in western Europe) which wasn't  
present under those dictatorial régimes.

But there is much more to say: It is a subject that can't be  
encapsulated in a few sentences.

--mkb

On Dec 10, 2008, at 11:26 AM, E. Wayne Johnson wrote:

> I really cant find anything good to say about the government  
> bailout of industry.  People have
> short memories and don't seem to do their history homework.  The  
> heavy hand of government
> control led to genuine disaster and widespread starvation in China  
> in the 1960's and 1970's,
> and since adapting a more capitalist
> model they can truly say "Ming tian geng hao!"  Tomorrow will be  
> even better.
>
> Socialism and its closely allied doctrine have been very sadly  
> discredited.  Even
> sadder is the notion that it should be tried here since it has been  
> already found
> to be a horrible idea with horrific consequences.
>
> Liberty has worked well for us here.  We should go back to it.
>
> Suggested reading--- Bastiat, "The Law"
> http://www.fee.org/library/books/thelaw.asp
>
> Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>
>> Comment below.
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:05 AM, John W. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Karen Medina  
>>> <kmedina at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Peace-discuss,
>>>
>>> I would like to discuss the US taking over an industry.
>>>
>>> Let us take the postal service as an example. The postal service  
>>> has always been
>>> tied to the federal government. And has done well.
>>>
>>> But as an institution, it was extremely sexist and racist clear  
>>> into the 1980s. I
>>> blame this on the fact that it was tied to the federal  
>>> government. For a very long
>>> time, the postal service did not have to abide by OSHA's safety  
>>> guidelines, again
>>> because it was a government institution. The postal service used  
>>> to be one of
>>> the highest stress occupations -- again because it was run by the  
>>> government
>>> and was managed top-down and so very close to the way the  
>>> military was run
>>> that many ex-military people were employed by the postal service.
>>>
>>> I am not saying that I think the postal service should be  
>>> privatized, I am just
>>> saying that when the government runs an industry, it tends to  
>>> overlook human
>>> dignity issues and is slow to change -- and it makes us all  
>>> guilty for the human
>>> rights abuses done by the institution.
>>>
>>> It is good sometimes to be able to point to a CEO and say that  
>>> person is bad,
>>> but it is really hard for the public to turn and look at the way  
>>> the public is
>>> running an industry and say "we are bad".
>>>
>>> -karen medina
>>>
>>> I guess I'd like to take the opposite view.
>>>
>>> While I have heard about the stress involved in working for the  
>>> post office (particularly at "the Plant"), I doubt that it's any  
>>> worse than working for some private-sector corporation, most of  
>>> which are also managed in a top-down style.
>>>
>>> Historically, government institutions like the military and the  
>>> post office have been among the LEAST racist and sexist employers  
>>> in America.  In the black community of the 1940s and 1950s,  
>>> having a job at the post office was about the best job that one  
>>> could hope for.  Teaching was also a viable and desirable option  
>>> in the black community.  The police and fire departments proved  
>>> more difficult to integrate.
>>>
>>> An irony of history is that, because of the way the law has  
>>> evolved, public-sector unions have been for the past 30 years FAR  
>>> stronger than private-sector unions, providing public employees  
>>> with far greater job protections.  Of course, it also helps that  
>>> government jobs can't be exported overseas.
>>>
>>> Again, due to the peculiar nature of our labor laws, the  
>>> government is in a position to mandate things like affirmative  
>>> action, a living wage, etc. not only in its own employment  
>>> practices but in instances where it contracts with private-sector  
>>> vendors.  Legally, we have not seen fit to extend the same level  
>>> of government-mandated worker protections to private-sector  
>>> employers who do not do business with government.
>>>
>>> There are pros and cons both ways, of course.   But on balance, I  
>>> would MUCH prefer to work for the government, and I think that  
>>> basic industries having to do with food, energy, and essential  
>>> services should be nationalized for purposes of national security  
>>> and the public good.
>>>
>>> John Wason
>>
>> Amen to all that!, and I'd add to the list "food, energy and  
>> essential services" health insurance, the railroads. The profit  
>> motive (capitalism) in "essential institutions or industries" is  
>> not one which can be trusted to lead to the best and most  
>> efficient services for all the people, and which will lead to a  
>> sustainable society.    --mkb
>>
>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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