[Peace-discuss] socializing an industry -- good but also bad

Wed Dec 10 19:11:10 CST 2008

The problem with your example of China, is that it is NOT a success story for Chinese Working people.

It is a success for trans-national corporations and Chinese government bureaucrats as well as their cronies, but not for the average person.
In fact the Chinese people have the worst of both systems ; the totalitarian control of state capitalism ( ie. communism... NOT socialism ) and the insecurity / poverty of capitalism.

The so called " success story " of China has also lowered the standard of living of the average working person in the U.S.. 
It is difficult for U.S. companies to compete with 20 cents an hour wages and Chinese  prison slave labor as well. 
In effect, the U.S. government under Clinton and Bush have encouraged this de-industrialization of our country with their corporate capitalist masters.

I am all for free enterprise ( small businesses ), but I hate capitalism.
Democracy and citizen control is the key. It doesn't matter what percentage of your economy is in the public sector or the private sector, the bottom line is democracy. Let the people deceide !

We have seen in this country what a disaster private corporate ; health care, the media and utilities are.
And of course we have seen what a real success ; Unemployment Compensation, Social Security, and Medicare are, despite attempts to sabotoge it via funding cuts.
On the other hand, I don't think it would be a good idea if the government made and sold clothing and shoes.

So my point is that there is nothing inherent in government ownership and participation in the economy being equal to " tyranny ".
Many countries in Europe that are a LOT more democratic than the U.S. have a significant amount of the economy in the public sector, which works extremely well for it's citizens in terms of efficiency, access, and avoiding the tyranny of too much corporate control. 

The old Soviet Union on the other hand was a total state run economy ( which is communism, NOT socialism ) with a brutal totalitarian government. And then we had the free market paradise of Pinochet's Chile, which was a brutal Fascist military dictatorship.
So public / private sector economics does NOT determine democracy, citizen control determines democracy.

I know we have gotten away from the main purpose of this list serve with this thread, but since we are on the subject, I felt compelled to contribute.

But maybe this is not such a bad thing, because ambiguous words like ; " Socialism ", are used by the corporate media and the politicians to try to divide us. 

Regardless if I think it is tyranny for corporations to own a communities water and power supply, or if Wayne thinks it is tyranny for the government to own anything,
the bottom line that I believe we all can agree on is that citizens in this country and in most places around the world have lost control of their governments.

If the citizens of this country had control of our government and it's elected officials, and  the corporate media I might add, we would NEVER have invaded Iraq or Afganistan, or at the very least, we would have by now withdrawn ALL U.S. troops in Iraq and begun the process of ending the war in Afganistan. 

David Johnson

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: E. Wayne Johnson 
  To: Brussel Morton K. 
  Cc: Peace-discuss 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] socializing an industry -- good but also bad

  I really cant find anything good to say about the government bailout of industry.  People have
  short memories and don't seem to do their history homework.  The heavy hand of government
  control led to genuine disaster and widespread starvation in China in the 1960's and 1970's, 
  and since adapting a more capitalist
  model they can truly say "Ming tian geng hao!"  Tomorrow will be even better.

  Socialism and its closely allied doctrine have been very sadly discredited.  Even
  sadder is the notion that it should be tried here since it has been already found
  to be a horrible idea with horrific consequences.  

  Liberty has worked well for us here.  We should go back to it.

  Suggested reading--- Bastiat, "The Law"
  http://www.fee.org/library/books/thelaw.asp

  Brussel Morton K. wrote: 
    Comment below.  

    On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:05 AM, John W. wrote:

      On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Karen Medina <kmedina at illinois.edu> wrote:

        Peace-discuss,

        I would like to discuss the US taking over an industry.

        Let us take the postal service as an example. The postal service has always been
        tied to the federal government. And has done well.

        But as an institution, it was extremely sexist and racist clear into the 1980s. I
        blame this on the fact that it was tied to the federal government. For a very long
        time, the postal service did not have to abide by OSHA's safety guidelines, again
        because it was a government institution. The postal service used to be one of
        the highest stress occupations -- again because it was run by the government
        and was managed top-down and so very close to the way the military was run
        that many ex-military people were employed by the postal service.

        I am not saying that I think the postal service should be privatized, I am just
        saying that when the government runs an industry, it tends to overlook human
        dignity issues and is slow to change -- and it makes us all guilty for the human
        rights abuses done by the institution.

        It is good sometimes to be able to point to a CEO and say that person is bad,
        but it is really hard for the public to turn and look at the way the public is
        running an industry and say "we are bad".

        -karen medina

      I guess I'd like to take the opposite view.

      While I have heard about the stress involved in working for the post office (particularly at "the Plant"), I doubt that it's any worse than working for some private-sector corporation, most of which are also managed in a top-down style.

      Historically, government institutions like the military and the post office have been among the LEAST racist and sexist employers in America.  In the black community of the 1940s and 1950s, having a job at the post office was about the best job that one could hope for.  Teaching was also a viable and desirable option in the black community.  The police and fire departments proved more difficult to integrate.

      An irony of history is that, because of the way the law has evolved, public-sector unions have been for the past 30 years FAR stronger than private-sector unions, providing public employees with far greater job protections.  Of course, it also helps that government jobs can't be exported overseas.

      Again, due to the peculiar nature of our labor laws, the government is in a position to mandate things like affirmative action, a living wage, etc. not only in its own employment practices but in instances where it contracts with private-sector vendors.  Legally, we have not seen fit to extend the same level of government-mandated worker protections to private-sector employers who do not do business with government.

      There are pros and cons both ways, of course.   But on balance, I would MUCH prefer to work for the government, and I think that basic industries having to do with food, energy, and essential services should be nationalized for purposes of national security and the public good.

      John Wason

    Amen to all that!, and I'd add to the list "food, energy and essential services" health insurance, the railroads. The profit motive (capitalism) in "essential institutions or industries" is not one which can be trusted to lead to the best and most efficient services for all the people, and which will lead to a sustainable society.    --mkb

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