[Peace-discuss] Moon eclipse

Fri Feb 22 14:58:53 CST 2008

I guess I should read War and Peace" again. There is a well esteemed  
new translation.
Quite interesting to read all this.  thanks.

--Mort

On Feb 22, 2008, at 12:31 PM, David Green wrote:

> Even though my fate was not to be a Christian, I've found it  
> interesting to read from and about Tolstoy, discovering once gain  
> why we don't read what we don't read in school.
>
> DG
>
> In the last fifteen years (1895-1910) of his life Tolstoy wrote  
> numerous articles and letters promoting the philosophy of  
> nonviolence and the method of civil disobedience. He expressed his  
> gratitude to several American writers who especially influenced  
> him, namely, Garrison, Parker, Emerson, Ballou, and Thoreau. He  
> repeated the basic principle that murder is wrong and that killing  
> one's fellow human beings in any circumstances is murder. Thus the  
> simple truth is that war and executions are murder, even though  
> people try to justify them. The essential solution to war is for  
> people to realize what it really is and call it by its right name.
> It should be understood
> that an army is an instrument of murder,
> that the recruiting and drilling of armies
> which Kings, Emperors, and Presidents carry on
> with so much self-assurance are preparations for murder.9
> Therefore a Christian cannot be a soldier, that is, a murderer, and  
> a man with any sense will not enslave himself to a master whose  
> business is killing. The way to end war, then, is for those who  
> recognize that it is wrong, to refrain from fighting and even to  
> cease supporting warlike governments by refusing to pay their  
> taxes. Those who are not hypnotized into the wrongdoing must  
> refuse; those who do follow reason, conscience, and God will always  
> attain the best results for themselves and for the world. They say  
> something like this: we realize that the danger they are so anxious  
> to guard against is a fraud. All nations claim they want peace, but  
> at the same time they are all arming themselves against others. We  
> recognize the law that all people are of the same family, and it  
> does not matter if one belongs to this country or that. Thus we are  
> not frightened by the danger that other nations will attack. The  
> law of God is more important than the requirement to participate in  
> killing because our duty is not only not to kill but not to violate  
> at all. Therefore we will not prepare for murder nor give money for  
> that purpose. We will not attend your meetings designed to pervert  
> people's minds and consciences in order to transform them into  
> instruments of violence to obey any bad man choosing to use them.
>
> Now the real struggle is between those who use violence and those  
> who refuse to be violent. Thus Tolstoy urged both officers and  
> soldiers to resign. He exposed the cruel punishments the army uses  
> to turn men into less than animals, into machines, which perform  
> deeds most repulsive to human nature. He exhorted men to obey God  
> rather than the shameful commands of men.
>
> We must learn to see through the perverted rationalizations that  
> governments use to justify war. In 1894 Tolstoy wrote Christianity  
> and Patriotism, warning against the dangerous sentiment of  
> patriotism, which he defined as "the preference for one's own  
> country or nation above the country or nation of any one else." He  
> found it aptly illustrated in the German patriotic song,  
> Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles. This sentiment he regarded as  
> immoral because it violates the golden rule by trying to benefit  
> oneself at the expense of others. For Tolstoy patriotism "is  
> nothing but an instrument for the attainment of the government's  
> ambitious and mercenary aims, and a renunciation of human dignity,  
> common sense, and conscience by the governed, and a slavish  
> submission to those who hold power."10 Patriotism must inevitably  
> yield to universal brotherhood.
>
> Tolstoy proposed that the most important changes in the life of  
> humanity are not brought about by armies nor machines nor  
> exhibitions nor labor unions nor revolutions nor inventions but by  
> a change in public opinion. We need only to stop lying to ourselves  
> and realize that strength is not in force but in truth. Oppressive  
> governments fear the clear expression of thought more than anything  
> else; spiritual force is free and always accessible in the depths  
> of human consciousness. We must learn to use the consciousness of  
> truth by expressing what we know is right. By expressing the truth  
> the new public opinion will become enlightened. This truth is found  
> in our consciences and is given to us by God. Christ gave us his  
> peace, but it is up to us to bring it into realization.
>
>
> Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Carl is right that Magellan probably did not say it, which is why I  
> said it is
> "attributed to" him, altho I unfortunately still made it seem that  
> he did say it by
> fumbling my tenses later on. My bad. The quote has been attributed  
> to Magellan for
> over a century, but I understand it's not actually found in any of  
> Magellan's writings.
> Maybe I was too focussed on not making it appear that I was  
> glorifying Magellan, and
> enjoying the sentiment in the quote.
>
> But why we would assume it's "liberal" myth-making is far from  
> clear. The original
> source of the quote is unknown. Nowadays it has traction across  
> several political
> positions that I know of due to the Church's history of similar  
> dogma in the face of
> reality, most notably geocentrism (Earth at the center), which is  
> what got Galileo in
> hot water (or nearly did), and more recently other religious  
> authorities concerning the
> teaching of evolution in public schools. Poking fun at such  
> authorities, even
> inaccurately, is not necessarily "liberal".
>
> Frankly, I still like the quote, whether the source is literary or  
> historical, for more
> general reasons: it expresses a basic skepticism in the face of  
> stubborn authoritarian
> dogma and/or ignorance, a sentiment that resonates with many people  
> because dogma and
> ignorance of one kind or another is still very real. (This includes  
> Flat-Earthers,
> literal and figurative.)
>
> Michael Moore, for example, is someone whose work and quotes I  
> greatly admire, even tho
> he is sometimes inaccurate. (His oft-repeated statement that the US  
> whisked a group of
> Osama bin Laden's relatives out of the country when all other  
> planes were grounded, for
> example, is according to Moore based on a newspaper article that  
> says no such thing.)
> But Moore expresses a frustration with our rulers from a working  
> class perspective,
> which is in short supply in the venues that he is able to climb  
> into - plus, he is
> usually basically right.
>
> At any rate, even if it spoils our fun, we must agree when our  
> missteps are pointed
> out.
>
> Ricky
> --- "C. G. Estabrook" wrote:
>
> > Liberal myth-making, I'm afraid (which is not unknown in our own  
> time).
> >
> > I doubt Magellan ever said any such thing, because educated  
> Europeans
> > (including church officials) of Magellan's time (and long before)  
> did
> > not think the earth was flat.
> >
> > The standard model (as in Dante) was of a round earth at the  
> center of a
> > series of concentric spheres, each one (except the ninth) holding  
> the
> > the moon, sun, or one of the planets.
> >
> > A quite brilliant book on the model of the world from ancient times
> > through Shakespeare and Milton is C. S. Lewis, THE DISCARDED  
> IMAGE. I
> > used to insist my grad students in Renaissance studies read it. -- 
> CGE
> >
> > Ricky Baldwin wrote:
> > > Hope you saw it, it was a nice one - and early enuf that even
> > > Catharine stayed up for it.
> > >
> > > We were reminded of a quote attributed to a famous, and famously
> > > deeply flawed, earthbound explorer who despite his many barbarous
> > > acts and allegiances was able to look up from the muck and  
> blood of
> > > brutal history and come up with this one:
> > >
> > > "The Church says the Earth is flat, but I have seen its shadow  
> on the
> > > Moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church." - F.
> > > Magellan (not the first man to circumnavigate the globe)
> > >
> > > Ricky
> > >
> > > --- Karen Medina wrote:
> > >
> > >>> A total moon eclipse may be seen around 9:01 PM this evening, if
> > >>> clouds permit. A
> > >> fairly rare event, which may foretell nothing.
> > >>
> > >> It may not even foretell a "change"?
> > >>
> > >> -karen medina p.s. It is so nice to have peace and peace-discuss
> > >> lists back up again! Yay!
> >
>
>
>
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