[Peace-discuss] Clinton stumping for Clinton on C-SPAN -- I must confess I was impressed...

Mon Jan 7 18:54:21 CST 2008

Sure, devastation will have great consequences in the long run... or not. You and I can watch it all on our big screen HDTVs since it won't really affect us. Btw, what's the deal w/ the Laurie and (capital letter) LAURIE? Are there two of you on this list, or??
   --Jenifer

"Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net> wrote:
        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}                Smile!  I appreciate and respect you point of view; but I just disagree. J  I am not holding out for a perfect world either; but I also am not optimistic about gaining even just a better world.  I certainly am not interested in expending energy fighting windmills to stand a possibility of only winning some minor or symbolic battles while never seeking to win the war.  The American political culture and electoral system is beyond repair and cannot be remedied with reforms.  In my opinion, playing the established game is but an example of, when you participate in a rat race, you are a rat whether you win or lose the race.

  I am also not sure if devastation my not have beneficial consequences in the long run by virtue of alienating those whose false consciousness leads them to tacitly support the system as it is and the way it works, who buy into the establishment premises and corporate values (e.g., the capitalists American dream of being either Horatio Alger by gaining fame and fortune or becoming middle class), and who are unwilling to go outside the system and fighting for their vested interests.  Should they become alienated, then the society stands a chance of getting them to radically analyze things and entertain the possibility of revolting against the establishment and their minions and organizational actors.

        From: Jenifer Cartwright [mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:20 PM
To: Laurie at advancenet.net
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Clinton stumping for Clinton on C-SPAN -- I must confess I was impressed... 

    I'm not holding out for a perfect world, just a better one. I've already said there's a big difference betw the Dems and Reps imho, that more right wing Supremes wouldn't hurt YOU (or even me), but it would be truly devasting for many in our country and the world. Sticking to that. 

     --Jenifer 

"Laurie at advancenet.net" <laurie at advancenet.net> wrote:

      Well, you certainly are welcome to your positions; but I, for one, see casting a vote which implicitly supports a system that forces one to decide between two evils as being the same as throwing one’s vote away.  They said the stakes were two high the last election also; so people voted for Dems over Repubs in the various legislative elections.  The Dems won; but nothing changed.  The stakes are the same as they were before the election.  The elected Dems fooled us and have shown absolutely no backbone and a pronounced inclination to political opportunism.  Are we to be fooled again?  

    As for Supreme Court appointments, I do not see Dems appointing anyone who is really radical or progressive for fear of alienating the center and the right, the independents and “Blue Democrats,” and the big corporate contributors to the Dem party.  They will not make court appointments that will be dedicated to overturning the bad court decisions of the current Court.  I did not see the Court under the Clinton Administration making any radical progressive decisions on cases that came before it with respect to abortion, environment, etc.  At best they tried to hold the line at where it was and not attempt to push back against the conservative right trend and reverse it.  They were not an activist Court.  So what makes you think that a Dem pres would appoint and a Dem Senate would confirm an activist radical progressive justice who would push for  strong abortion rights, increased control over the actions of corporations and business, increased stronger environmental
 decisions favoring environmentalists, a refutation of increased executive branch power and authority,  or a roll back of current anti-civil rights and increased national security laws, etc.

          From: Jenifer Cartwright [mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 8:47 PM
To: LAURIE SOLOMON
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Clinton stumping for Clinton on C-SPAN -- I must confess I was impressed... 

      Correct. I think there are PLENTY of differences betw the Dems and Reps -- just getting to appoint the next couple of Supremes is reason enuff -- and I have no intention of throwing my vote away. The stakes are too high... maybe not for most of us, but certainly for many, many others.

       --Jenifer

LAURIE SOLOMON <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET> wrote:

        >the Clintons are still straddling both sides of the tracks on that, with no intention of actually moving too far to the "wrong" side once the campaign >rhetoric is no longer necessary... tho' better than Bush (S-CHIP) plus I'd still take my chances w/ them over any of the Republicans. 

      Well, the above statement makes me ask would you rather cut off you left arm or your right leg?  Or would you reject both options and prefer not to cut anything off.  You seem to accept the proposition that you have to make a choice between the two offered options and cannot insist on taking a completely different road and ignore the offered choices.  

            From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Jenifer Cartwright
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:21 PM
To: John W.; Peace-discuss List
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Clinton stumping for Clinton on C-SPAN -- I must confess I was impressed... 

        Sorry, no redundancy from my point of view (connotative meaning). Brains = intelligence, IQ, ability to acquire, retain, process, and utilize vast amts of knowledge. Smarts = canny, savvy, sharp, understand the game and are able to stay two-steps ahead of it... Why don't some/most politicians have our perspective when it comes down to all the things that really matter too us??? Well, they just don't, ya know? Gore doesn't have to be beholden to the corps anymore, and Carter never was in their pockets (so far as I'm aware, not that he didn't make mistakes), and well, the Clintons are still straddling both sides of the tracks on that, with no intention of actually moving too far to the "wrong" side once the campaign rhetoric is no longer necessary... tho' better than Bush (S-CHIP) plus I'd still take my chances w/ them over any of the Republicans. 

         --Jenifer

"John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

        At 02:23 AM 1/2/2008, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:

      Did anybody catch Bill stumping for Hilary yesterday on C-SPAN? Helluva speech --organized, substantive, knowledgeable. Nobody in US politics today can deliver up that level of offhand yet sincere oratory like Bill Clinton. I had to keep reminding myself of all the awful things he did while in office, it was that good... I actually liked, admired, and was less terrified of Hilary when he was all done. Wow. (Sorry, but -- in my defense -- there is something reassuring about brains, smarts, and an actual program, ya know?)

 --Jenifer

The perennial question is, why do these candidates with brains, smarts (at the risk of redundancy), and an actual program never seem to IMPLEMENT the program once they're in office?  Or, to the extent they implement anything, why does it end up being something like the very OPPOSITE of the program they espoused when they were candidates?

These days Bill Clinton and Al Gore, like Jimmy Carter, seem to be the very personification of wisdom and statesmanship.  Where was that wisdom and statesmanship when they were in office?

John Wason

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