[Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at uiuc.edu
Thu Jun 19 14:24:03 CDT 2008
The draft was ended precisely to prevent the sort of mutiny the US faced in
Vietnam, and to some extent it worked.
G. Bush I said that the major effect of Gulf War I was, "By God, we've kicked
the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all!"
But people are not fools, and what's happening in Iraq is coming through -- from
the Abu Ghraib pictures to Taguba's report.
The unprecedented propaganda might of the US is slowly wearing away -- 70% of
the US populace is opposed to this war, and it's the job of our political class,
Democrat and Republican, to make sure that that doesn't make any difference. So
far they've done a pretty good job.
Hence President Obama will be "as careful about getting out as we were careless
about getting in." (In fact, our leaders, Democrat and Republican, were pretty
deliberate about getting in -- and intend to stay: note what Obama and the other
Democrats are saying about "AfPak.") --CGE
Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> Plenty of info out there if folks are interested in doing more than
> tuning in to Rush and O'Reilly for reassurance (I think most voters
> probably don't even bother doing that).
>
>
>
> Vietnam soldiers fought that war for a long time before they revolted...
> and no sign that those in Iraq and Afghanistan are ready to do the same
> in sufficient numbers to end those wars, so just seeing what's going on
> doesn't do it. I personally don't think most people are paying all that
> much attention, period, and probably never have in recent decades. So
> yes, it's up to activists to lead the way to the truth that that
> thoughtful commited few can't overlook (although largest demonstrations
> ever around the globe against military action against Iraq didn't have
> any effect on the Bush Admin going ahead w/ the attack anyhow)... and
> for all of us to help elect the best candidates from the bottom
> up... and then encourage them to be even better.
>
> --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Thu, 6/19/08, C. G. Estabrook /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
>
> From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> To: jencart13 at yahoo..com
> Cc: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi" <sftedrow at gmail.com>,
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net, "LAURIE" <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 10:11 AM
>
> You confuse the small political elite and the parties that represent them
> (Republican and Democrat) with the large majority of the population. The US
> spends about a third of of its GDP each year to manufacture the consent of that
>
> larger group. It works. As a result, most Americans are substantially misled
> about what the US does around the world. If they knew, they'd be appalled
> --
> as, you rightly point out, the draftees sent to Vietnam were when they saw it.
> They consequently revolted. The task for activists is to produce that same
> consciousness today. --CGE
>
> Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> > Carl wrote:"If most US citizens actually knew what was being done in
> > their names, they would be appalled."
> >
> >
> >
> > First, an appalling number of people know exactly what the US is doing
> > in their names and they're fine w/ it. They start w/ the premise that
> > the US is entitled to its empire and has a responsibility to run the
> > world (some of these people repeatedly vote to fund the appalling
> > behavior done in all our names).
> >
> >
> >
> > Second, the MSM and school curriculae give the basic facts of US
> > behavior since its inception. Manifest Destiny, acquisition of Indian
> > lands (and Hawaii) does not appall them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Third, the MSM and school curriculae give basic facts of US behavior
> > since 9/11. Starting two wars of revenge for a terrorist attack by 20
> > men did not appall them. As the behind the scenes machinations of the
> > Bush administration have become sensational news, there has not been
> > much of an outcry from citizens (or lawmakers) showing they care all
> > that much about what has been done in their names. (The US electorate
> > did not end the war in Vietnam, even after the Melai massacre hit the
> > front pages; the unwillingness of those in uniform to continue fighting
> > ended the war..)
> >
> >
> >
> > Fourth, 35 articles of impeachment by Dennis Kucinich (who also got the
> > word 'out there' during two runs for the Democratic nomination for
>
> > president... and got less than 5% of the vote) were not acted upon by
> > most who heard them...
> >
> >
> >
> > Fifth, lotsa books exposing appalling US actions have hit the best
> > sellers' list (and I'm hoping the 35 Articles of Impeachment will
> soon
> > join them!) but most US citizens don't read those books... and
> don't pay
> > all that much attention when the highlights hit the MSM.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'd call myself realistic rather than elitist... but regardless, I do
> > believe the Margaret Mead quote: "Never doubt that a small group of
> > thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the
> > only thing that ever has."
> >
> >
> >
> > --Jenifer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, C. G. Estabrook /<galliher at uiuc.edu>/* wrote:
> >
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bush admin torture policy
> > To: "Sarah Tedrow-Azizi" <sftedrow at gmail.com>
> > Cc: jencart13 at yahoo.com, peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net,
> "LAURIE"
> > <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
> > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:47 PM
> >
> > You're welcome; I entirely agree. If most US citizens actually
> knew what
> > was
> > being done in their names, they would be appalled. That shows what
> groups like
> >
> > the well-named AWARE should be doing. --CGE
> >
> >
> > Sarah Tedrow-Azizi wrote:
> > > Thank you for putting this so eloquently.
> > >
> > > It's a dangerous path to write off an entire population as
> > "idiots," or
> > > even "willingly ignorant," and takes the tone of
> elitism. We
> > only have
> > > access to the information we are given, and often that access is
> a
> > > product of privilege. It makes little sense that anyone would
> make a
> > > deliberate choice to be uninformed.
> > >
> > >
> > > C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> > >> Given that policy is largely insulated from politics in the
> US, why
> > >> don't we pay attention to what US citizens actually
> think, rather
> > than
> > >> what the media tell us they think -- and rather than
> dismissing them
> > >> as "idiots" on the basis of that very policy?
> > >>
> > >> Both political parties and the media are far to the right of
> the
> > >> general population on a whole host of issues and the
> population is
> > >> purposely atomized and kept apart from political issues; they
> know
> > >> they can't really affect them -- which is why they
> don't care
> > too much
> > >> if Gore/Bush, Kerry/Bush. or Clinton/Obama/McCain become
> president..
> > >> Specifically on foreign policy, the point has been made
> recently by
> > >> Benjamin Page and Marshall Bouton in their book, "The
> Foreign
> > Policy
> > >> Disconnect."
> > >>
> > >> "Drawing on a series of national surveys conducted
> between 1974
> > and
> > >> 2004, Page and Bouton reveal that -— contrary to
> conventional wisdom
> >
> > >> -— Americans generally hold durable, coherent, and sensible
> opinions
> >
> > >> about foreign policy. Nonetheless, their opinions often stand
> in
> > >> opposition to those of policymakers, usually because of
> different
> > >> interests and values, rather than superior wisdom among the
> elite ....
> > >> [For example] the public consistently and overwhelmingly
> favors
> > >> cooperative multilateral policy and participation in
> international
> > >> treaties. Moreover, Americans’ foreign policy opinions are
> seldom
> > >> divided along the usual lines: majorities of virtually all
> social,
> > >> ideological, and partisan groups seek a policy that pursues
> the goals
> > >> of security and justice through cooperative means."
> > >>
> > >> "Sometimes government-media propaganda dupes the public
> -- on
> > Saddam
> > >> and 9/11, to take a dramatic example. We know the means very
> well:
> > >> huge government-media propaganda exercises, which do have
> detectable
> > >> effects. But quite often the public is not duped and
> continues to
> > >> oppose the policy decisions of the government, the media, and
> elite
> > >> opinion, as public opinion studies reveal."
> > >>
> > >> "The Chicago Council on Foreign Relations, which
> regularly
> > monitors
> > >> American attitudes on international issues, illustrates the
> > >> disconnect. A considerable majority of Americans favor
> 'working
> > within
> > >> the United Nations, even when it adopts policies that the
> United
> > >> States does not like.' Most Americans also believe that
> > 'countries
> > >> should have the right to go to war on their own only if they
> (have)
> > >> strong evidence that they are in imminent danger of being
> > attacked,'
> > >> thus rejecting the bipartisan consensus on 'pre-emptive
> war.'
> > >>
> > >> "On Iraq, polls by the Program on International Policy
> Attitudes
> > show
> > >> that a majority of Americans favor letting the UN take the
> lead in
> > >> issues of security, reconstruction and political transition
> in that
> > >> country."
> > >>
> > >> We see what voters actually say on these matters in countries
> like
> > >> Venezuela and Spain, which are more democratic than ours.
> Even after
> > >> the intense media campaign that was the "Reagan
> revolution"
> > (in no
> > >> election did more than one fourth of the eligible voters vote
> for
> > >> him), polls showed that about 80 percent of the public
> thought that
> > >> the government works for the few and the special interests,
> not for
> > >> the people. (The numbers have undoubtedly gone up in the Bush
> years.)
> > >>
> > >> So we can pay attention to what serious survey data reveals
> about the
> > >> real political views of Americans, or we can trust what we
> > "know"
> > >> about those "idiots" (so different from us) -- our
> knowledge
> > being a
> > >> product of the US media... --CGE
>
>
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