[Peace-discuss] busloads to the dark side

[Ricky Baldwin]

Catharine and I just saw "Taxi to the Dark Side" last night, so we're still processing
a lot, but what struck me most was what the convicted torturers had to say about what
they did.  One in particular made it clearest: "I would never do that again without
something in writing," or words to that effect.  

In writing?

We had some other thoughts, but for now I'll just stick to this and one related topic:
the poll mentioned showing 35 percent of Americans would find torture justified in some
circumstances.  Of course, depending on the wording, it sounds like almost 2/3 still
said torture was never justified - which is encouraging at least - but I'd like to read
the actual poll questions, results, margins of error, etc.  I'd also like to check out
other polls on similar subjects, to see if they conflict.

But it is still disturbing that so many people would say, 'OK, go ahead, torture.'  I
know we've had our disagreements on this list about "Hitler's Willing Executioners" -
the big debate is really how broadly the incidents in the book generalize, not whether
they happened at all - but I think there's something in it, and this documentary
illustrates what I'm on about.  

In "Hitler's Willing Executioners" there are people who commit atrocities, and it's
clearly not because they fear retribution if they don't, because they exceed their
orders (whereas others in the book do not follow orders directing them to commit such
acts, and by the way receive little or no discipline).  In historical studies of the
'Hitlerzeit' there's also the problem of millions of people supporting Hitler (even if
it was less than the Nazis claimed), maybe without detailed knowledge of what went on
in the worst camps, but with full knowledge of some pretty bad stuff.

So, I'm reminded of Noam Chomsky's remark that it's a serious question whether what the
US needs is "dissent or denazification."

This film makes the point that investigations were all focussed downward, not up the
chain of command.  Fair enough, and the evidence presented is damning.  However,
interviewees keep saying over and over that the interrogators were being given no clear
directions, were being pressured for results, etc., and there's at least passing
mention  of working 16 hour days and living at the Bagram camp and other factors that
would certainly have worked on the psychology of the interrogators themselves.  Will
this combination of factors produce horrific results?  Sure.  There are plenty of
psychological studies that bear this out.  And are these guys entitled to consideration
of these factors?  I'd say so.  But nobody in the film ever said, for the sake of
people who may in the future (or present) be dressed up in uniforms and sent in to get
information from chained up prisoners, 'But it's still wrong to do these things, and
you are responsible for your own actions - under international law and basic ethical
considerations.'

The torturers in the film were tried for killing one prisoner, not for the day-to-day
stuff they did.  One of them was richly rewarded, as the film points out.

And how many people, admittedly without detailed information in most cases, will still
argue that torture is acceptable - or that some of these acts are not torture, which is
just a dodge?  A lot.  Maybe not most, but still too many.  We have our work cut out
for us.  The fear, the group-think, the widespread social value placed on obedience to
authority ... these are, I think, what they mean when they say if you can't talk to
your neighbors about your politics then your opinions aren't worth having.

There are symbols, sure, that people can't get past.  The flag, homosexuality, Jesus,
etc.  But if we can't talk to people, human being to human being, about the nightmarish
brutality being committed in our names, then what hope do we have?

I think we should all be encouraged that this documentary won an Oscar and that it is
now being shown, at least here and there and with difficulty.  I think we can take
courage from all the work of AWARE and other groups that have challenged the terror
wars and these related policies like torture, and from the overwhelmingly positive
response that we get nowadays.  The Administration has been forced to respond.  The
leading Republican candidate for president, as conservative and nasty and pro-war as he
is, is on the Rush Limbaugh's and the Ann Coulter's bad list for breaking ranks on at
least part of it (the torture).  And the Democrats, as sorry as they are, have at least
had to  fight over these issues, each trying to appear moral while loyal to the
fatherland at the same time.

We are having an effect.  And I still think many, many more people are on 'our side'
than the media and the rest of the elite would have us believe.  It's just sobering to
realize how many aren't, and what they believe and will accept.  But we have to realize
it, I think, in order to proceed.

My 2c.
Ricky




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