[Peace-discuss] Bellicose rhetoric???

[C. G. Estabrook]

We're all idealists [sense 1] on this list ("We're all bozos on this bus") or we 
wouldn't bother with it.

Obama and his epigoni are crackpot realists in Mills' sense. I don't see any of 
them on this list (except the aforementioned FBI agent whose job it is to read 
the list).  Just some people who believe that Obama isn't one either.  --CGE


John W. wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:02 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu 
> <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     John--
> 
>     I don't recognize the reflection in the mirror you hold up to my
>     nature, and that may be my error, of course, but I don't identify
>     with any of the usual forms of Idealism, unless you mean only that
>     ethics and politics should be guided by ideals in the sense of goals
>     -- things one wants to do or accomplish (and that's an Aristotelian
>     point).
> 
>     Instead of being an idealist Platonist, Cartesian, Kantian, or
>     Hegelian -- I'd prefer to identify myself with Aristotelian,
>     Thomist, and Marxist materialism (which I think by the way are more
>     compatible with Christianity than the Idealisms; announcing the
>     resurrection is asserting a materialism over against Pharisaic
>     idealism...).
> 
> 
> Oh, dear.  :-(  I haven't studied any of these things, and have no idea 
> what you're talking about.  :-(  I was just using the term "idealist" in 
> its ordinary, common-sense, dictionary definition.  The kind that Joe 
> Sixpack understands.  More specifically, the first three of the 
> definitions below:
> 
> *i·de·al·ist*  
> <http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf>   (ī-dē'ə-lĭst)  n.  
> 
>    1. One whose conduct is influenced by ideals that often conflict with
>       practical considerations.
>    2. One who is unrealistic and impractical; a visionary.
>    3. An artist or writer whose work is imbued with idealism.
>    4. An adherent of any system of philosophical idealism.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>     Putting aside these matters, which may be of interest only to you
>     and me on this list, I will say that I do on the contrary recognize
>     your use of Realism: it was classically set out by the American
>     sociologist C. Wright Mills fifty years ago, in "The Causes of World
>     War Three," which seems to me presciently to describe realism as
>     promoted by Obama:
> 
> 
> Huh?  What?  "Crackpot" realism?  Who said anything about "crackpot" 
> realism?  Have you NO idea how to conduct an ordinary discussion with 
> mere mortals, Carl?
> 
>  
> 
>     "In crackpot realism," Mills wrote, "a high-flying moral rhetoric is
>     joined with an opportunist crawling among a great scatter of
>     unfocused fears and demands ... The expectation of war solves many
>     problems of the crackpot realists ... instead of the unknown fear,
>     the anxiety without end, some men [sic] of the higher circles prefer
>     the simplification of known catastrophe ... They know of no
>     solutions to the paradoxes of the Middle East and Europe, the Far
>     East and Africa except the landing of Marines ... they prefer the
>     bright, clear problems of war -- as they used to be. For they still
>     believe that 'winning' means something, although they never tell us
>     what..."
> 
> 
> All I can say is, I'm thankful that NO readers of this list fit Mills' 
> definition of "crackpot realism".  Which leads me to wonder why you 
> brought it up here....
> 
>  
> 
>     That sort of realism seem to me Obamaism avant la lettre.
> 
> 
> But I wasn't speaking of "Obamaism", whatever exactly that is.  I was 
> speaking of two factions within AWARE.
> 
>  
> 
>     Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.
> 
> 
> Me too.
> 
>  
> 
>     Amen.  --CGE
> 
> 
> 
>     John W. wrote:
> 
> 
>         Your argument makes sense, Carl, as far as it goes.
> 
>         What I've seen on this list all along is basically two groups,
>         the Realists
>         and the Idealists.  (Have I said this before?)  I place myself
>         in the former
>         group for the most part.
> 
>         The Realist - which would include most of the readers of this
>         list - says,
>         "Yes, let's learn all we can about Obama, watch him like a hawk,
>         continue to
>         express our dissent with certain of his policies in the
>         strongest possible
>         terms.  But meanwhile, let's give him a bit of leeway,
>         recognizing that a
>         thoughtful leader CAN change and grow in response to events and
>         to public
>         pressure, and that in the Real World compromise is always
>         necessary.  We're
>         not gonna get all we want, but half a loaf is better than none.
>          Especially
>         after the famine of the Bush/Cheney years."
> 
>         The Idealist - of whom you, Carl, are the principal
>         spokesperson, joined by
>         Neil and a couple of others - says, "My way is the Right Way,
>         because I am a
>         highly Moral Person!  If I don't get everything I want, I'm
>         gonna throw a
>         temper tantrum, take my ball, and go home!"
> 
>         Of course, I'm caricaturing the Idealist just a bit, but not too
>         terribly
>         much.  I'll hasten to say, Carl, that I always appreciate your
>         perspective
>         and insights, and would be disappointed if you ceased to make
>         those things
>         available to us.  You keep me on my intellectual toes, and
>         inform me of much
>         that is valuable.  So do the other Idealists, when they express
>         themselves on
>         this list.  But like any extremist, you'd be dangerous if you
>         were a Doer and
>         not just a Talker, no matter how benevolent you think your goals
>         and motives
>         are.  As a suicide bomber, you'd undermine your own cause and
>         that of the
>         rest of us.
> 
>         I suppose, Carl, that you and I are among the few professing
>         Christians on
>         this list.  I'm normally not much of a prayer, but recently I've
>         found myself
>         praying for Obama several times a day - for his safety and, equally
>         importantly, that he would seek and receive wisdom (as opposed
>         to mere
>         knowledge) so as to guide our Ship of State properly.  You could
>         do worse
>         than to spend just a fraction of the time you spend digging up
>         dirt on Obama
>         in praying for him.  Ah, well, maybe you DO pray for Obama.
> 
>         Now feel free, of course, to refute my points, pick my words
>         apart, and quote
>         Edward de Vere or some obscure Greek philsopher.
> 
>         John Wason
> 
> 
>