[Peace-discuss] Bellicose rhetoric???

Wed Nov 12 14:17:09 CST 2008

I too have noticed the lack of birds, finches at our feeders, but  
other species as well. --mkb

On Nov 12, 2008, at 12:19 PM, LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:

> Yes, well it is funny you bring up birds;  I have not seen a single  
> bird in
> my yard or at my feeders since summer.  Usually they flock to the  
> yard and
> the feeders this time of year.  Has anyone else noticed the lack of  
> birds?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:46 AM
> To: LAURIE SOLOMON
> Cc: 'E. Wayne Johnson'; 'Morton K. Brussel';
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bellicose rhetoric???
>
> The birds sing almost all night long:
>
>      * Some say that ever, 'gainst that season comes
>        Wherein our Saviour's birth is celebrated,
>        The bird of dawning singeth all night long;
>        And then, they say, no spirit dare stir abroad,
>        The nights are wholesome, then no planets strike,
>        No fairy takes, nor witch hath power to charm,
>        So hallow'd and so gracious is the time.
>
>      * So have I heard and do in part believe it.
>
> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>> I guess now this is not only "Peace-Discuss" but "Peace and
>> Religion-Discuss."
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:30 PM
>> To: Morton K. Brussel
>> Cc: C. G. Estabrook; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; LAURIE SOLOMON
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bellicose rhetoric???
>>
>> The fullness of God is manifest in the things that exist and in the
>> infinity that characterizes existence itself.
>>
>> Morton K. Brussel wrote:
>>> .That which we don't know is what People call god, which shows its
>>> emptiness.
>>>
>>> --mkb
>>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2008, at 10:05 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree that we don't know the answer to the question, Why is there
>>>> anything instead of nothing?
>>>>
>>>> But that answer (which we don't know) is "what people have called
>>>> God," as Thomas Aquinas says.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
>>>>> You can ask all you want; but that does not mean that there are  
>>>>> any
>>>>> answers
>>>>> that are The Answer.  Thus, the exercise can turn into  
>>>>> intellectual
>>>>> masturbation, which may give some pleasure although it may not
>>>>> furnish such
>>>>> pleasure to all.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of  
>>>>> C. G.
>>>>> Estabrook
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:00 PM
>>>>> To: Morton K. Brussel
>>>>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Bellicose rhetoric???
>>>>> The universe just is, and we can't ask about it?
>>>>> Morton K. Brussel wrote:
>>>>>> I submit that gods have no substance to answer this question.  
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> are totally insubstantial.
>>>>>> My guess is there has never been "nothing". There's no need to
>>>>>> question existence; it's axiomatic. --mkb
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2008, at 8:27 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is there anything instead of nothing, Mort?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Morton K. Brussel wrote:
>>>>>>>> All this preaching on this list!  Perhaps I can insert the
>>>>>>>> opinion that "God"
>>>>>>>> (or gods) are totally empty concepts, explaining nothing, but
>>>>>>>> giving rise to
>>>>>>>> endless ratiocination.  --mkb
>>>>>>>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 10:35 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>>>>>>>> God is not a necessary component of morality for the simple
>>>>>>>>> reason that God
>>>>>>>>> -- the answer (which we do not know) to the question, "Why  
>>>>>>>>> is there
>>>>>>>>> anything instead of nothing?" -- is not a component of  
>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>> God is not a thing in the universe -- we can't point to
>>>>>>>>> something in the universe as the reason for the existence  
>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> universe -- and God and the
>>>>>>>>>  universe don't add up to two. (Two of what would that be?   
>>>>>>>>> Two
>>>>>>>>> things?
>>>>>>>>> But God is not thing in the universe, etc.)
>>>>>>>>> Morality is a component of human nature (for the existence of
>>>>>>>>> which God of
>>>>>>>>> course is the reason, as for everything), as grammar is a
>>>>>>>>> component of language. Just as an intelligent visitor from  
>>>>>>>>> Mars
>>>>>>>>> would think that all
>>>>>>>>> humans were speaking one language with regional variations, so
>>>>>>>>> human ethics
>>>>>>>>>  might be regarded as the rules (or grammar) for humans' being
>>>>>>>>> together --
>>>>>>>>> with some interesting regional variations... (That's what  
>>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>>> horse racing, or at least philosophical argument -- and
>>>>>>>>> literature.)
>>>>>>>>> Well over a thousand years of Christian philosophical  
>>>>>>>>> reflection
>>>>>>>>> took it as
>>>>>>>>> a commonplace that the Decalogue is not a set of rules imposed
>>>>>>>>> from outside, as it were, that might have been different, but
>>>>>>>>> rather rational
>>>>>>>>> conclusions from reflection on what it is to be human.  (They
>>>>>>>>> did think it
>>>>>>>>> was a little hard to derive the 3rd/4th Commandment --  
>>>>>>>>> there are
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> numbering systems -- this way.)
>>>>>>>>> Christian theologians thought that, although ethics could be
>>>>>>>>> descried rationally, that took effort (and time) -- hence all
>>>>>>>>> that literature -- and
>>>>>>>>> so God generously provided in the Ten Commandments as it  
>>>>>>>>> were an
>>>>>>>>> operating
>>>>>>>>> manual ("documentation," we would say) for being human.
>>>>>>>>> More on this from me (quoting others), if you want, at "The
>>>>>>>>> Subversive Commandments,"
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.counterpunch.org/estabrook03292005.html>. --CGE
>>>>>>>>> John W. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ... I'd be more interested in hearing one or both of you  
>>>>>>>>>> Bible
>>>>>>>>>> scholars
>>>>>>>>>> explain to Jenifer why God is a necessary component of
>>>>>>>>>> morality.  Or
>>>>>>>>>> conversely, how one can be moral without a belief in God.  
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>> Wason
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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