Fw: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Fri Aug 14 23:58:16 CDT 2009

----- Original Message ----- 
From: unionyes 
To: Robert Dunn 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:55 PM
Subject: ~!Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Robert,

The REAL issue here, is the fact that many people who are attending these congressional townhall meetings are PREVENTING others from having their right to free speech via their shouting and even physical intimidation !

To add insult to injury, most of these people who are disrupting OTHER PEOPLE'S FREE SPEECH , are either being paid by corporate interests of the ; Health Insurance, Pharmecutical, HMO, Medical Equipment, and Private Hospital industries OR are ignorant of basic world facts !

MANY of these people are ignorant of the fact that ;

 1) the pathetic " watered down version " of the corporate sponsored Obama health care plan
is a " sham " to keep the parasitical health insurance companies in business, whose bottom line PROFIT depends upon their denying people healthcare, resulting in over 40,000 people dying needlessly every year in the U.S. !

AND,

2) Many of these people who are denying OTHERS of their free speech rights, are being fed LIES via FOX NEWS etc.. Many of these people are already on " Socialized Medicine " via Medicare and the V.A. ( Veterens Administration ), NOT TO MENTION that ; Obama, his entire cabinet, and every member of the U.S. House and Senate already HAVE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE !

3) The U.S. is number ONE in healthcare costs per person in the WORLD, yet we rate 37th in QUALITY and ACCESS to  care, behind EVERY INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD !
And even many THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES !

So my bottomline point here Robert is ;

1) Your rights to free speech ENDS, when you interfere with MY free speech rights !

and 

2) Why should we the taxpayers continue subsidizing an industry with our TAX DOLLARS, that makes a profit of OUR suffering and DEATH !
When we have a more just and PROVEN health care system via 36 other countries ( some of whom have had this proven cost effective system for over 100 YEARS  ! ) ?
So, no matter how ignorant and dellusional some one is, their free speech rights end, when they interfere with OTHER PEOPLE'S  free speech rights. Which is EXACTLEY what has been happening in these townhall meetings.

IF you would like to debate the private vs.  REAL ( not the phoney Obama plan ) public healthcare system, I would LOVE to have you on the ILLINOIS WORLD LABOR HOUR  Radio Program for a rational and respectful debate, unlike the brownshirt Nazi tactics of these astro-turf corporate financed neo fascist thugs who have been denying people their right to free speech, verbally and physically intimidating those who disagree with them publicly, and most recently, physical violence against Union members who spoke out in St. Louis at a congressional townhall meeting and who were NOT intimidated, resulting in a small riot when the anti- healthcare Nazis physically assualted one of the Union members, who unlike many coward weak-knee liberals, physically fought back !

To quote Malcolm X ; I am non-violent with those who are non-violent with me " !

David Johnson
356-8247

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Dunn 
  To: jencart13 at yahoo.com ; galliher at illinois.edu ; jbw292002 at gmail.com 
  Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
  Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:51 PM
  Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

  AWARE folks, I have recently submitted a letter to the NG about the utter hypocrisy of the American Liberal Left of telling the American Right to just sit down and shut up about their critiques of Obamacare while forgetting that "dissent is patriotic." Now the tables are turned, and liberals are in power. I personally think Obama is even more dangerous than Bush ever was because half of the American Left has become deluded into thinking he is the secular/progressive Messiah! Jennifer, while I disagree with Carl on a lot of things, I think you are out of line for referring to his thoughtful opinions as "hateful little lies." Its dishonest and intellectually lazy to start name calling when you are losing an argument. Carl has not engaged in any such behavior at all.

  Regards,

  Robert Dunn

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:00:15 -0700
  From: jencart13 at yahoo.com
  Subject: Re: FW: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
  To: galliher at illinois.edu; jbw292002 at gmail.com
  CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net

        O Gee, where to start, Carl... Maybe I'll just point out another of yr hateful little lies -- accusing me of wanting to ban hate speech, which I never said, as well you know -- and leave it at that. 
         --Jenifer  

        --- On Thu, 8/13/09, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

          From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
          Subject: Re: FW: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
          To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
          Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
          Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 10:25 PM

          On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 1:04 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:

            Of course you should shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, if there is a fire.

            The famous line comes from an utterly reprehensible SC decision in 1919, Schenck v. United States. "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic," wrote Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. How had Schenck "falsely shouted fire"?  He had distributed flyers opposing the draft!  The SC in its majesty ruled that the USG could punish him for that, regardless of the First Amendment.

            (The great jurist Holmes, fond of sententious sayings, was also admired by some peculiar people for his ruling in Buck v. Bell [1927], permitting the involuntary sterilization of a young Virgina woman: "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." Expert testimony came from a field worker for the "Eugenics Record Office" -- Dr. Arthur Estabrook... 

          No relation, I presume?

          I agree that O.W. Holmes Jr. was significantly overrated as a jurist.

            Nazi eugenics legislation was based on the American practice, established by Holmes; the US SC has never reversed the general concept of eugenic sterilization.)

            And Holmes' decision in Schenck was not overturned for 50 years. In Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) the court limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current SC standard -- the government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action.

            Obviously the hate speech that Jenifer et al. want banned does not pass that test.  --CGE 

            LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:

              While I do not entirely disagree with you on this Carl, I do think there are
              certain special occasions in which freedom of speech and action are and
              should be limited (i.e., screaming "fire" in a crowded theater); but clearly
              a precisely stated standard like "speech and actions that present a provable
              clear and present danger of inciting others to take actions that create a
              provable and clear danger or in themselves create such a clear and provable
              danger" should be established and used in exercising both prior and
              after-the-fact censorship, which should be determined in a court of law with
              rights to appeal.  I think that this holds for all categories of speech and
              action including "hate speech."

              In reference to the subject line, " Lou Dobbs is dangerous," we are all
              dangerous.  All the animals are equally dangerous; but some are more
              effective than others in being dangerous.

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