[Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

[LAURIE SOLOMON]

First of all, you are your individual personal experience as an argument
against statements that are of a general statistical nature.  I never said
that all persons who have every lived in the U.S. displayed the traits; I
suggested that many if not a significant majority did - i.e., enough to
characterize the general attitudes and dispositions of the country since its
beginnings.  You are not going to tell me that most of the carpenters and
other laborers across the country throughout the years (1) have not been
racist, (2) have not been anti-immigrant, (3) have not been antagonistic to
those who do not conform to the established values and behaviors, (4) have
not been paranoid and anti gay, (5) have not displayed hate and violence
against those who opposed to WWI, WWII, the Korean Conflict, Viet Nam, Iraq,
etc., (7) have not been anti-communist cold warriors, or (8) that only a few
working class folks have exhibited such defects. 

You are not arguing that you and your family are representative of the
majority of the American population or that the KKK never held sway in the
US and that it was not made up of mostly ordinary working class folks from
both rural and urban area. Are you arguing that the fundamentalist
Christians in this country are an abnormality, that the Salem witch trials
never took place. You certainly are not denying that the country with the
backing of a significant number of its population supported HUAC activities,
loyalty oaths, and engage in anti-communist witch hunts and discriminatory
practices or that they held anti-Semitic and anti-native American or
anti-Mexican or anti-Asian beliefs or engage in discriminatory practices
against them with respect to their place in both the community and in the
workplace or in education and health.

The phenomena is not just a lower class or a working class phenomena; the
middle and upper classes in the US have also displayed the attitudes,
beliefs, values, and behaviors that I am characterizing as the basic
American character.

As for my experiences, when I was a kid, I spent a lot of time living in the
black ghetto of Wilmington, De, and saw how that population lived and the
discrimination they suffered at the hands of the working class cops, middle
class shop keepers, insurance salesmen, and white working class, middle
class, and upper class slumlords.  I also was the a member of one of the
first Jewish families to break into an all Christian neighborhood where
covenants among the neighbors stipulated that they would not sell their
houses to blacks and Jews and use to have daily fist fights with the kids in
the neighborhood because I was Jewish and their folks told them that Jews
were bad and did this and that. Later, I would hear similar sorts of things
said in private about blacks, Catholics, poor folks, Asians, the Polish, the
Italians, the Irish, etc. by all the various respectable white middle class
and working class folks. I also noticed how those attitudes covertly found
their way into their behavior and the way the interacted with other people.
I realized how pervasive it really was and how it existed beneath the
surface despite a superstructure of tolerance, politeness, civility, etc.
My elementary and junior high school was formally and officially segregated
until Brown vs The board of Education which involved a Delaware case among
others.  After that case, the first two blacks attended my high school, I
befriended them and found that both they and I were treated by the other
students and the faculty like we were shit.  It took two years before said
attitudes started being masked by a superficial air of tolerance at the
surface; but the attitudes remained below the surface and discrimination
took on a less overt form against the black students.   I was forgiven and
accepted back into the fold but watche3d closely to make sure that I did not
get out of line again, which I did often and had to pay for.

I was also here in CU in the mid-1960 until 1970 and then off and on until I
moved back in 1979.  The community was in effect racially segregated and
racially charged as well as politically charged.  There not only was a
racial divide but also a town and gown divide as well as a generational
divide in the black community, in the local community, and in the University
community.  The attitudes, values, and behaviors I spoke of came out in the
open and were being expressed by members of all communities and by the
members of all the socio-economic classes in each of the communities.
Distrust and hatred ran wild in the streets.  Locals hated university types,
They also disliked people form out of town and out of state - especially
Easterners.  Unions and union members resisted allowing blacks into the
unions or to work on construction sites except as menial help.  The
university and its officials and staff generally not only supported racism
and ethnic discrimination by its unions and personnel; but it engaged in it
as well when it came to both staff and academic hiring, student admissions,
distribution of resources, and the like.  

So in short, I reject your contention that your family and your personal
experiences are representative of the majority of Americans and that based
on those experiences that commentators like Dobbs, Beck, Hannity, et al lack
the support of a majority of Americans just as I reject the notion that a
majority of Americans did not support the Japanese removal to concentration
camps during WWII or immigration quotas that are lower for Asians and
Africans than for Western Europeans or the removal of native Americans from
their lands to reservations in out of the way locations generally alien to
them.  


-----Original Message-----
From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
[mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of unionyes
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:10 PM
To: Peace-discuss List
Subject: Fw: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

Maybe I am an ignorant working class " simpleton " , but I have never had 
anything in common with these fascist hate mongers !

Nor did my parents nor my grandparents !

WE had black people as guests and friends in our home and I had black 
friends who came to my house for the day to play, during the period 1967 - 
1972, when it was not a popular thing to do so, and my parents recevieved " 
snide and vicious " remarks from SOME of the neighbors ( not the majority ).

My grandmother was a laundry Worker at the White Line Laundry ( corner of 
Neil and Daniel - most recently JBJ's ) during the 1930's and 40's, when 
half of the Workers there were poor whites ( mostly Irish ) and African 
Americans, who united and formed a Union and were arrested multiple times by

the Champaign Police.

I remember when I was 5- 8 years old ( 1962 - 1965 ) going to funerals for 
some of her Black co-workers on Norh 4th street at the funeral home that is 
still there, during a VERY racially charged time when most white people were

afraid to travel north of University Ave, between the I.C. Railroad Tracks 
on the west, and Lincoln Ave. on the east, especially after sundown.

I contend that the Becks, Limbaughs, Dobbs, and Hannitys do not have nor 
have they ever had ( going back to the 1930's with the fascist radio priest 
Father Coughlin ( sp. ) )  the support of the majority of Americans.

David J.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LAURIE SOLOMON" <LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
To: "'C. G. Estabrook'" <galliher at illinois.edu>
Cc: "'unionyes'" <unionyes at ameritech.net>; "'Peace-discuss List'" 
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous


Who says I was?  I am sure that I am not totally exempt and what exemptions
I have may come from a set of more or less than ordinary - if not unique -
biographically determined experience or history.  This history may not have
significantly altered the nature of my character but it did effect the
content.  In short I hate and am prejudiced against different people than
them and maybe most other Americans, my enemies are different than theirs
and maybe most other Americans , my fears are different than theirs and
maybe most other Americans, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:43 PM
To: LAURIE SOLOMON
Cc: 'unionyes'; 'Peace-discuss List'
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous

How were you able to escape these defects?


LAURIE SOLOMON wrote:
> Very simply and to the point the people of the U.S. , for the most part,
are
> and have been inherently  all the things that Dobbs, Beck, Hannity,
Limbaugh
> et al stand for. They comprise a natural audience for these commentators
and
> those like them and, therefore, represent a significant demand for their
type
> of commentary, which can be denied and ignored at one's own peril.
>
>
>
> To elaborate:
>
> If anything these commentators are catering to the inherent racism,
> intolerance,  ethnic bigotry, religious prejudices, social Dawinian
biases,
> fearfulness, desires for conformity, love of violence, etc. that is part
and
> parcel of America and its people.  The people already have these traits
and
> have no need for corporations or the corporate establishment to instill,
> encourage, or bring out such attitudes and values since they pre-existed
the
> rise of corporations in the US and of corporate America.  Hence, they are
not
> the creatures of corporate power, money or spin.  To be sure, contemporary
> corporations make use of the existence of these attitudes and values for
> their own purposes - often to maintain control over the workings of the
> society so that it works in their interests - whenever possible.  However,
> the corporate establishment is not the source of these attitudes and
values.
> Hence there exists a significantly large native group who hold these and
> similar values, beliefs, and attitudes which make up a natural audience
for
> the Dobbs. Becks et al which create a demand for what Dobbs, beck et al
are
> giving them.  To deny this or to minimize it is to play ostrich and stick
> one's head in the ground.
>
>
>
> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
15,
> 2009 8:20 PM *To:* Peace-discuss List; LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re:
> [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>
>
>
> And your point Laurie in 50 words or less ?
>
>
>
> David J.
>
>
>
> P.S. I am NOT trying to be " flippant " or disrespectfull, becaue I truely
> respect your opinion and knowldge ~!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON <mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>
> *To:* 'unionyes' <mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:12 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>
>
>
> I guess that may be where we disagree; I think that there is a tendency to
> give too little credence to the fact that there is this demand and that it
> comes from a significant and large segment of the U.S. public who may be
> guided by corporate spin  bought by corporate money but which nonetheless
> represent and embodies some very fundamental values and beliefs that are
> actually deeply held by a large number of the American public and masses.
> American racism, ethnic and religious prejudice, cultural biases against
> intellectual as opposed to practical education, and fear and hatred of
new
> immigrants and people from other countries, intolerance, bigotry, and
demand
> for conformity are somethings that preexisted the rise of corporations in
> America or corporate America.  The corporate establishment with its power
and
> wealth has been able to use these characteristics of the American public
to
> their advantage very effectively in modern times; but it is not the
source,
> cause, or grounds for said attitudes, values, or love of violence toward
> other living creatures and properties. As was once said by Stockley
> Carmicheal, I believe, "Violence is as American as Apple Pie."  I would
add
> that so is lawlessness, intolerance, prejudice, conformity, as well as
> notions of racial, ethnic, and  religious supremacy, as American as apple
> pie.  They all have roots that pre-date the rise of American corporations
and
> are part of our cultural and psychological heritage.
>
>
>
> *From:* unionyes [mailto:unionyes at ameritech.net] *Sent:* Saturday, August
15,
> 2009 3:05 PM *To:* LAURIE SOLOMON *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
> Dobbs is dangerous
>
>
>
> It's not so much that ; Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, etc., have a demand for
> their shows from a large segment of the U.S. public, but instead is a
> function of what the corporate advertisers, the rest of corporate america
and
> the wealthy right-wing foundations want and will pay for !
>
>
>
> David J.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* LAURIE SOLOMON <mailto:LAURIE at ADVANCENET.NET>
>
> *To:* 'Neil Parthun' <mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com> ;
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:36 AM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou Dobbs is dangerous
>
>
>
> Whether or not one is engaged in censorship in this case appears to depend
on
> one's referent level being addressed.  Your point about Lou Dobbs, the
> person, may have some merit vis-à-vis the difference between censorship
and
> access to the exulted platform of radio & TV; however if you move the
level
> of reference up to the radio/TV station level, then one might be seen as
> engaging in the censorship of the station and its broadcast content.
>
>
>
> While no one guarantees the right to have a nationally televised show, no
one
> guarantees anyone the right to prevent someone from having such a show or,
> for that matter prevents someone from having such a show.  In the case of
> radio/TV, the air waves allegedly belong to the public to license to
actors
> for use. The radio/TV stations and networks are among those actors; and
> within legally prescribed restrictions they are free to air whatever
content
> they see fit,  independent of what the public or any portion of the public
> might desire although in this country that decision is driven by the
market
> (audience share and advertising money).  Obviously, if one wants to alter
the
>  legal restrictions, one needs to go through the process of changing the
> legal framework , statutes, and administrative rules pertaining to the
> conditions of licensing.
>
>
>
> If one moves up a level to the ownership and control over the air waves,
> which belong legally to the public, then I am afraid that those who wish
to
> see Dobbs shut down are going to lose for now and in the near future since
> they do not compose a majority of the public - or enough to force a change
in
> the licensing requirements for the stations and their personnel as to the
> sorts of content that they can air and when.  Like the other right-wing
talk
> commentators, his station and he appear to have strong national following
> that support and demand him be given air time and are willing to put their
> money where their mouths are.  That cannot be said for the progressives,
the
> left, or even the moderate reformers.  If they comprised a significantly
> large population and if each contributed $5 or $10 each per year for
purposes
> of buying advertising on the stations that carry Dobbs, they could
probably
> use that as leverage to get the stations to either reel him and other in
or
> take them off the air.  But it seems that the progressives, the left,
liberal
> and moderate reformers would rather hold on to their money  or spend it
> elsewhere and exercise their lungs shouting and crying about him and his
> content instead.
>
>
>
> *From:* peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
> [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] *On Behalf Of *Neil
Parthun
>  *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2009 10:13 PM *To:* C.G.Estabrook *Cc:*
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Fw: Lou
Dobbs
> is dangerous
>
>
>
> Banning speech and requesting that such speech does not have a
hyper-exulted
> platform to amplify it are two very different things.
>
>
>
> Nobody is saying Lou Dobbs doesn't have a right to say whatever he wants.
He
> has that right.  However, no person is guaranteed the right to have a
> nationally televised show to promote their views and perspectives on any
> topic.
>
> Solidarity,
>
> -N.
>
>
>
> Neil Parthun
>
> IEA Region 9 Grassroots Political Activist
>
> Writer/Facilitator for Champaign-Urbana Public i
>
>
>
> "Early in life I had learned that if you want something, you had better
make
> some noise." - Malcolm X
>
>
>
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>
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