[Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's
D and R primaries
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Thu Aug 27 13:43:20 CDT 2009
Matt--
Aren't you involved in a contradiction when you say (quite rightly) "that
identity politics have been ruinous to the organized left" -- and then call my
criticism of identity politics "a pseudo-intellectual mechanism"? Which is it?
As to "coming to Wayne's defense," I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Wayne has
shown himself quite able to provide for his own defence in what he undoubtedly
sees as an attempt to establish justice, promote the general welfare, and secure
the blessings of liberty for himself and his posterity. (It is however true
that -- as far as this list is concerned -- he hasn't done much to insure
domestic tranquility: he seems to recall the prophecy of the late Abbie Hoffman,
that sacred cows will make the best hamburger.)
As far as being active is concerned, I've always thought that the cure for bad
speech is more speech. Do you think it's something else?
I do think it's a mistake, instead of contesting and even condemning what
someone says, to label it "hate speech" with the implication that it then has no
more right to free speech. "If you're really in favor of free speech, then
you're in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise;
otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech" [guess who].
Oh, and thank you for your congratulations on my retirement from the University.
Among other things, not teaching gives me more time to answer emails...
Regards, Carl
Matt Reichel wrote:
> I agree that class politics should be more prominent in the United States and
> that identity politics have been ruinous to the organized left.
>
> Nonetheless, this doesn't mean we should sit idly by while someone spews
> contemptible hate speech. None of the descriptors I used of Rosanna (and
> Wayne, by extension) were inappropriate, except for perhaps "wacko." And last
> I checked this is a listserv for activists, who seem to spend too much time
> staring at their computers and too little time being "active," to discuss
> current events. One wouldn't expect to be held to academic writing standards
> on an email listserv.
>
> Rosanna Pulido was using her position of influence as the candidate of a
> major party for national office to spread vile hate speech about gays,
> Latinos, blacks and working class people. This is verbatim what Nazi fascists
> did in Germany. As such, I am being perfectly appropriate in calling her a
> hate-monger and fascist.
>
> Lastly, I am ashamed to see Carl use a psuedo-intellectual mechanism, i.e.
> his criticism of "identity politics," to come to Wayne's defense. The issue
> here is not one of "free speech," or what organizing techniques are most
> industrious from a left perspective. The issue here is hate speech. By all
> means, one has the "right" to spew it. However, as a scholar who is familiar
> with the philosophical foundations of the rights discourse should know,
> "rights" come with "duties." In this case, the duty is to face the
> consequences of perpetuating lies, the typical Conservative rejection of
> science, and a call to bring hate upon a significant portion of the
> population. I am happy to know that you and your crazed defense of this
> society's most backward elements no longer teaches at the University.
>
> Best, Matt
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:06:51 -0500 From: galliher at illinois.edu To:
>> ewj at pigs.ag Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for
>> next
> year's D and R primaries
>> CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>
>> Amongst those for whom identity politics have replaced class politics
> -- i.e.,
>> diversity (politics as etiquette) is all the more tenaciously
> insisted upon as a
>> substitute for economic equality as a real political goal -- voicing such
>> opinions about homosexuality becomes a "hate crime," the worst delict
> in the
>> liberal decalogue.
>>
>> American society today seems to have a Victorian prudishness about
> the actual
>> consideration of sexual morality, which is quite different from
> relegating the
>> matter to the rather minor importance it deserves.
>>
>> But as a political matter we attribute far too much importance to it,
> ignoring
>> e.g. the wisdom of Gore Vidal from long ago,
>>
>> "Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more
> than there is
>> such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives
> describing
>> sexual acts, not people ... The reason no one has yet been able to
> come up with
>> a good word to describe the homosexualist (sometimes known as gay,
> fag, queer,
>> etc.) is because he does not exist. The human race is divided into
> male and
>> female. Many human beings enjoy sexual relations with their own sex,
> many don't;
>> many respond to both. This plurality is the fact of our nature and
> not worth
>> fretting about." --"Sex Is Politics" (1979)
>>
>>
>> E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>> It's not clear to me what sort of standards for etiquette and
> language exist
>>> for blogs and the internet.
>>>
>>> Certainly the FCC ban on Carlin's "7 Words" doesnt apply, and one
> probably
>>> can't write for the Rolling Stone or Wonkette without being
> well-versed in
>>> punctuating ones remarks with a profusion of explicit calumnious
> metaphoric.
>>>
>>> What bothers me most is the hypocrisy implicit in calling the
> expressed
>>> admonitions of a group "homophobic", "wacko", and "hate-mongering".
> Some of
>>> the so-called left liberals are the most likely to engage in intensely
>>> disparaging and often obscene remarks about those who oppose their
>>> immorality. Isn't it "hate-mongering" to call someone a "hate-monger"?
>>> Isn't it Wack to call someone a wacko?
>>>
>>> If I lived in Ms. Pulido's district, I would be likely to vote for
> her,
>>> knowing that she understands the dangers of homosexuality and is
> therefore
>>> more likely to favour measures that would tend to contain and
> extinguish
>>> homosexuality rather than encourage it.
>>>
>>> I would guess that those who engage in homosexual behaviour and
> those who
>>> actively condone and promote homosexual behaviour would have a similar
>>> response to any opposition to their ideas regardless of what
> descriptive
>>> colloquialism is employed.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/27/2009 8:55 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>> Wayne,
>>>>
>>>> Are you endorsing these "fudge-packing" remarks in the original
> context?
>>>>
>>>> Ricky
>>>>
>>>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Matt Reichel /<mattreichel at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Matt Reichel <mattreichel at hotmail.com> Subject: RE:
> [Peace-discuss]
>>>> Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R primaries To:
>>>> ewj at pigs.ag Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Date: Thursday,
> August 27,
>>>> 2009, 8:03 AM
>>>>
>>>> Given the short time period of the special election, the fact that the
>>>> Democrat was the presumed winner in the gerrymandered district,
> and the
>>>> relative unknown nature of Pulido outside of various wacko
> channels, there
>>>> aren't a whole lot of gold standards reporting on her. The value
> of the
>>>> article I linked to had nothing to do with its investigative
> rigor, but
>>>> rather with the fact that several quotes of Rosanna's were
> carefully laid
>>>> out in succession. You only need listen to Rosanna to understand
> that she
>>>> is an imbecile.
>>>>
>>>>> From what I am reading here, perhaps the Campaign for Liberty
>>>> ought be renamed the "Campaign for Liberty for Heterosexual White
> Men."
>>>>
>>>> Truly Scary Stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Best, Matt
>>>>
>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:24:09 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag To:
>>>> mattreichel at hotmail.com CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: Re:
>>>> [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun for next year's D and R
>>>> primaries
>>>>
>>>> Matt,
>>>>
>>>> Wonkette is certainly the gold standard of truth and carefully
> considered
>>>> journalism.
>>>>
>>>> I am really with you on this one. I am so disappointed that Rosanna
>>>> "apologized". I don't much go for flip-floppers. Thanks for
> pointing this
>>>> out. I will ask her what point of weakness led her to apologize
> when I see
>>>> her in Du Quoin. Hope you will be able to make it to come speak to
> us in
>>>> Du Quoin and maybe you can see how she answers my question.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>> On 8/26/2009 2:57 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I merely wanted to correct your misconception about Rosanna. She
> couldn't
>>>> be more separated from the liberty movement, which is precisely
> why David
>>>> threw his hat into the primary.
>>>>
>>>> More on Rosanna:
>>>>
> http://wonkette.com/407392/anonymous-racist-freeper-is-actually-republican-candidate-to-replace-rahm
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She was unveiled during the last election as the "Chicagolady" on
> the Free
>>>> Republic website, where, among other things, she scribed "I would
> rather
>>>> live in a meat-packing town than a fudge-packing town.
> Fudge-packing should
>>>> be outlawed."
>>>>
>>>> This and other homophobic remarks were uncovered prior to her,
> Quigley and
>>>> I being invited to speak at a gay rights forum organized by Gay
> Chicago
>>>> magazine. She "apologized" for her remarks and went on into a
> tirade about
>>>> how the Mexican government is intentionally exporting poverty to
> the United
>>>> States and how people need to rise to the defense of our homeland from
>>>> these illegal immigrants.
>>>>
>>>> If this is the kind of politician that you support as part of the
> liberty
>>>> movement, I would be compelled to seriously question your
> credentials as a
>>>> "peace activist."
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Matt
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:34:24 -0500 From: ewj at pigs.ag
>>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ewj@pigs.ag>
>>>>> To: mattreichel at hotmail.com
>>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mattreichel@hotmail.com>
>>>>> CC: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>>> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naiman.uiuc@gmail.com>;
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>
> <http://us.mc306.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net>
>
>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: petition period has begun
>>>> for next year's D and R primaries
>>>>>
>>>>> Fascist in what sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> I dont live in her district but I'll ask Rosanna about you
>>>> and Mr. Ratowitz.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are surely a pleasant enough fellow, helping us identify
> hate-mongers
>>>>> like you do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/26/2009 2:07 PM, Matt Reichel wrote:
>>>>>> Rosanna Pulido is not a Ron Paulista; she is a fascist, racist
>>>>>> hate-monger who heads the Illinois Minuteman. I am not sure
> where you
>>>>>> have her identified as belonging to the Ron Paul movement. She did
>>>>>> show up at the July 4th Tea Party, but demonstrated no idea as to
>>>>>> what it was about. She is being
> opposed in
>>>>>> the Republican Primary by David Ratowitz, who is a genuine Ron
>>>>>> Paulista, and a far superior candidate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Either one will lose to me in the general election.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best, Matt Reichel www.mattreichel.us <http://www.mattreichel.us/>
>>
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