[Peace-discuss] Would It Kill Us to Apologize to Iran for the Coup?

Thu Feb 5 19:01:29 CST 2009

Yeah, although you could be for reparations without being for guilt,
or even acknowledging privilege. It's a blight on us all that the
descendants of slaves have a disproportionately small share of the
national economic pie, even if we got off the boat yesterday. I'm for
shoveling more money their collective way by any means possible. Call
it whatever you want: reparations, affirmative action, full
employment, raising the minimum wage, raising the earned income
credit, making it easier to form unions, shifting the burden of
taxation toward the wealthy, universal health care: I'm for it.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem with the United States is that many individuals refuse to accept
> ownership of human rights violations and crimes if they don't see their
> ancestors as guilty parties. For example: How many people do you know who
> object to making reparations to the descendants of slaves and Native
> Americans because their ancestor didn't immigrate to the states until after
> 1900?  People often do not understand how privilege benefits them or see the
> long term damage that is the result of years of prejudice and bigotry.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Something to keep in mind in judging whether an apology is an empty
>> endeavor: should all opinions have equal weight? Or should the
>> opinions of the victims of a crime and their descendants have greater
>> weight than the opinions of the perpetrators of the crime and their
>> descendants?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that making the apology is
>> > an
>> > empty endeavor. Sometimes it's important to do the right thing, if for
>> > no
>> > other reason than it's the right thing to do. Now if the US were to
>> > issue an
>> > apology then fail to engage in diplomatic relations with Iran then it
>> > could
>> > be argued that making such an overture is lacking in substance.
>> >
>> > I remember when American hostages were in Iran during the Carter
>> > administration.  As a middle school student I had to say the pledge of
>> > allegiance to the flag with my fellow students every day until they came
>> > home. No one ever really discussed the history of Iran and the actions
>> > of
>> > the United States. Instead myself and my peers were told that the
>> > Ayatollah
>> > Khomeini was a modern day version of the Big Bad Wolf blowing the house
>> > of
>> > the poor Shah down. History and civics was taught in ways that were
>> > favorable to the position of the United States and often areas such as
>> > our
>> > treatment of Native Americans and the civil rights movement were either
>> > given lip service or glossed over. I was a junior in college before I
>> > even
>> > heard the name Emmett Till, and I still consider myself to be ignorant
>> > (not
>> > stupid) in regards to where foreign policy is concerned.
>> >
>> > This is why we need people like Stephen Kinzer and other individuals who
>> > are
>> > willing to share how our actions are perceived in other lands. When my
>> > uncle
>> > went to Denmark to visit relatives he was confronted by people who were
>> > very
>> > angry with the Bush administration. He later communicated to my mother
>> > that
>> > it was the first time he had been taken to task over the leadership of
>> > this
>> > country....and he has been to many places around the world. While I
>> > doubt
>> > that the United States will ever be able to make full restitution for
>> > the
>> > harm that this nation has caused both here and overseas - we can at the
>> > very
>> > least make a geniune effort at reconcilation and amends. If this means
>> > admitting that we really F*cked up than I'm all for it.
>> >
>> > Marti
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:42 PM, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't expect them to apologize any time soon,
>> >> but at the same time I don't value such an
>> >> apology as having any real value.
>> >>
>> >> To me, such an apology is just empty words, of the "Talk is cheap & I
>> >> love
>> >> you is Free" variety.
>> >>
>> >> Much more valuable would be a real change in policy, closing of bases,
>> >> and
>> >> coming home,
>> >> which would speak meaningful volumes more that "We're soooooo sorry,
>> >> Uncle
>> >> al-Arabiya..."
>> >>
>> >> *
>> >>
>> >> Obama's appointments are surprisingly poor, even from the standpoint of
>> >> one
>> >> of his unrelenting detractors (like me).  You could hardly imagine much
>> >> worse
>> >> than Rahmbo, Hillary, Gates, Geithner, Ray LaHood,...  It's almost too
>> >> surreal
>> >> to make accessible comedy.
>> >>
>> >> Robert Naiman wrote:
>> >>
>> >> whenever someone suggests that the US apologize for something, some
>> >> people always say: but this would open the floodgates. i don't accept
>> >> this argument, either on moral or practical grounds.
>> >>
>> >> on moral grounds: it suggests that we should not do something right,
>> >> because it would "open the floodgates" for other demands that we do
>> >> something right.
>> >>
>> >> on practical grounds: after Clinton "near-apologized" for the US role
>> >> in Guatemala, life went on. There is little evidence that life as we
>> >> know it would grind to a halt if the US acknowledged what it did in
>> >> Iran in 1953 and after.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Jenifer Cartwright
>> >> <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Good points, Bob... And you could extend that: most Americans have
>> >> little
>> >> knowledge of the history of US foreign OR domestic policy, period...
>> >> and
>> >> little sensitivity even when they do e g, Manifest Destiny/Native
>> >> Americans.
>> >>
>> >> Amazing to me that Obama admitted he "screwed up" re not knowing about
>> >> the
>> >> Daschle taxes thing, but stood by his nomination, saying he'd have made
>> >> a
>> >> good sect'y of HHS.
>> >>
>> >> Re Obama's apologising for US behavior twds Iran, well, that would open
>> >> the
>> >> floodgates for other nations (esp in the ME) to demand apologies as
>> >> well.
>> >> So
>> >> I think it'd better for him to take an open, honest and concilliatory
>> >> approach twds Iran (and other wronged countries) going forward (as they
>> >> say), and (especially) to immediately give orders for the US to stop
>> >> doing
>> >> things (e g occupying Iraq, fighting in Afghanistan, bombing Pakistan)
>> >> that
>> >> need a lot more than apologies.
>> >>  --Jenifer
>> >>
>> >> --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Would It Kill Us to Apologize to Iran for the
>> >> Coup?
>> >> To: "peace discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> >> Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 1:08 PM
>> >>
>> >> When President Obama told al-Arabiya, "if countries like Iran are
>> >> willing to unclench their fist, they will find an extended hand from
>> >> us," the most widely reported Iranian response was President
>> >> Ahmedinijad's suggestion that if the U.S. truly wants good relations
>> >> with Iran, it should begin by apologizing for U.S. "crimes" against
>> >> Iran, including U.S. support for the coup that overthrew Iranian
>> >> democracy in 1953. Not surprisingly, there hasn't exactly been a
>> >> groundswell of popular support in the United States for President
>> >> Ahmadinejad's suggestion...
>> >>
>> >> Of course, if you know anything about the United States, you wouldn't
>> >> leap to the conclusion that Americans, as a country, are a bunch of
>> >> jerks who can't admit when they've done anything wrong. Most Americans
>> >> have little knowledge about the history of U.S. foreign policy in the
>> >> Middle East. As far as they know, the U.S. hasn't done anything wrong.
>> >> So why should we apologize?
>> >> ....
>> >> There is a close precedent. In 1999, President Clinton gave a
>> >> "near-apology" for the U.S. role in Guatemala's civil war. If
>> >> President Clinton could "near-apologize" for the U.S. role in
>> >> Guatemala, is it beyond the realm of imagination that President Obama
>> >> could "near-apologize" for the U.S. overthrow of democracy and
>> >> support
>> >> of dictatorship in Iran?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/would-it-kill-us-to-apolo_b_163957.html
>> >>
>> >> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/2/4/134155/4104
>> >>
>> >> http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/39545
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Naiman
>> >> Just Foreign Policy
>> >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> >> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> >> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robert Naiman
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>
>

-- 
Robert Naiman
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org