[Peace-discuss] Would It Kill Us to Apologize to Iran for the Coup?

[E. Wayne Johnson]

 >>>I go a step further and identify unregenerate human nature as the 
real culprit.

yep.

John W. wrote:
>
> Here is a point on which Carl and I agree, though his interest in the 
> topic is more academic, let us say, than mine.  Capitalism was the 
> root cause of racial discrimination rather than the reverse, and it's 
> the source of just about all of our other disparities as well. 
>
> However, I go a step further and identify unregenerate human nature as 
> the real culprit.  Humans, by and large, are self-centered, grasping, 
> fearful little creatures who are more interested in getting ahead of 
> their neighbor than in sharing their bounty with him/her.  It doesn't 
> matter what "system" we operate under, be it monarchy or capitalism or 
> communism or what have you.  Some humans always seem to figure out a 
> way to oppress their fellow humans, and rationalize their behavior in 
> myriad ways.  They don't even consider it oppression, they consider it 
> "working hard" or "living right" or whatever - even when they don't 
> work and live on the income from a trust fund!  And in that Marti is 
> absolutely right; by failing to recognize their privilege and 
> surrender at least some of it for the common good, they perpetuate and 
> exacerbate the evil.
>
> I continue to wonder at the factors which caused Europeans, just in 
> the last half of the last century, to get it more nearly right than 
> most other societies in history.  
>
> JW
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at uiuc.edu 
> <mailto:galliher at uiuc.edu>> wrote:
>
>     I wouldn't call it limousine liberalism, but John is correct I
>     think to suggest that there is a tendency in recent American
>     liberalism to substitute diversity for (economic) equality as the
>     goal of progressive politics.
>
>     The argument is sharply set out by Walter Benn Michaels in "The
>     Trouble with Diversity: How We Learned to Love Identity and Ignore
>     Inequality" (2006).  And it's been argued that the real story of
>     Tom Frank's "What's the Matter With Kansas?" (2004) is that the
>     working class abandoned the Democratic party when the Democrats
>     abandoned economic equality (insofar as they ever embraced it) in
>     favor of diversity.
>
>     Benn Michaels summarized his argument in a recent issue of the
>     British journal, "New Left Review."  Here is his conclusion:
>
>     "...the answer to the question, 'Why do American liberals carry on
>     about racism and sexism when they should be carrying on about
>     capitalism?', is pretty obvious: they carry on about racism and
>     sexism in order to avoid doing so about capitalism. Either because
>     they genuinely do think that inequality is fine as long as it is
>     not a function of discrimination (in which case, they are
>     neoliberals of the right). Or because they think that fighting
>     against racial and sexual inequality is at least a step in the
>     direction of real equality (in which case, they are neoliberals of
>     the left).  Given these options, perhaps the neoliberals of the
>     right are in a stronger position -- the economic history of the
>     last thirty years suggests that diversified elites do even better
>     than undiversified ones. But of course, these are not the only
>     possible choices."
>
>     <http://www.newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2731
>     <http://www.newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2731>>
>
>
>     John W. wrote:
>
>
>         On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Robert Naiman
>         <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com <mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>         <mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com <mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>>>
>         wrote:
>
>         I'm definitely not in favor of refusal to recognize privilege.
>         But I presume
>         that in a non-racist society, if everyone woke up one day and
>         discovered that
>         by some mysterious process, a chunk of their neighbors were
>         disproportionately excluded from the economic benefits that
>         the society had
>         to offer, people would move to address the disparity.
>
>
>         You gotta be shitting me, Robert.  Surely you jest?  You have
>         neighbors right
>         here on this mailing list who are disproportionately excluded
>         from the
>         economic benefits that society has to offer, and it has
>         nothing to do with
>         race, and no one on this list is doing a damned thing about it
>         or is GOING to
>         do a damned thing about it.  Whenever I talk about poverty,
>         lack of health
>         insurance, etc., from a personal perspective, I get a blank
>         stare from the
>         limousine liberals.  "Get a life," they say, or "Be warmed and
>         filled," to
>         quote the Good Book.  I daresay that most of the readers of
>         this list care
>         more about people in Pakistan than they do about their
>         neighbors, at least in
>         terms of doing anything pragmatic to help them.
>
>         I'll probably live to regret that comment, but there it is.
>
>
>
>         So, the fact that such disparities persist in our society, and
>         the fact that
>         we don't move successfully to redress them, to me is evidence
>         enough of
>         racism; no other story is necessary.
>
>
>         You ain't read enough stories, apparently.  There are many
>         types of disparities in our society, and many complex causes
>         of such disparities.
>         Racism is an important one, but it is only one.
>
>
>
>         That doesn't mean that other stories don't have value, and
>         might not also be important to achieving the end of redress,
>         but I see no need to posit them as
>         prerequisites, and some reason not to; since it might be the
>         case, for
>         example, that some people have a psychological barrier against
>         recognizing
>         privilege, but not against redress justified on some other basis.
>
>
>         You lost me there.  Not that it matters.
>
>
>
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>
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