[Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right

Sun Jan 25 15:05:41 CST 2009

Abortion isn't a religious question (like resurrection) but a philosophical
question (like human equality).  It doesn't become a religious question just
because some religious groups adopt a position on the matter.

You obviously don't think all ethical questions are religious, and there are
good philosophical arguments for the view that abortion is wrong. (See, e.g.,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/philosophical/future.shtml>.)

Good answers to the associated public policy questions obviously depend on the
antecedent answer to the question of whether abortion is ethical. --CGE

Ricky Baldwin wrote:
> Wayne,
> 
> I appreciate your concern, as always, for the downtrodden, but I'm afraid 
> it's misapplied here.  Many people I agree with on most issues would dismiss 
> yours and others' anti-abortion views as another example of your religious 
> blinders; I don't.  My guess is that you are both as sincere and as misguided
>  and the many good humanitarians who supported, e.g. the US attacks in Kosovo
>  (to save the ethnic Albanians from Serbian aggression) or the US conquest of
>  the Philippines (to save the locals from Spanish tyranny, etc.) or the 
> British conquest of India (to rid the Indians of superstition and slavery, 
> etc.).
> 
> But for starters, I think you will have to admit that the ethical question of
>  abortion rights has little to do with Margaret Sanger's infamous Social 
> Darwinism (which is anyway not quite the way her later critics portray it, it
>  seems to me), any more than your own Christian views are questionable in 
> light of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the European 'civilizing' campaigns 
> that masscred millions of indigenous people on one continent after another, 
> or the many other Christian atrocities against the poor and downtrodden of 
> the world.
> 
> The question of whether abortion is a form of racism, or class oppression, is
>  more complex in some ways, though actually very simple if looked at rightly,
>  I'd argue.  True, abortion has been visited on the poor and people of color 
> in this country and others as an oppressive campaign at times.  We can go 
> further: forced abortions and forced sterilizations have been practised as 
> genocide for at least generations.  Less overtly public welfare policies have
>  targetted oppressed groups in many ways from the days of workhouses, -- up
> to and including reproductive policies my fellow NOW organizers and I 
> encountered (as an example) in Mississippi in the 1990s whereby the locally 
> administered Medicaid program would pay for poor  women to have subdermal 
> contraceptive Norplant insertions BUT NOT pay to have them removed, 
> regardless of the woman's wishes or even of the side-effects or allergic 
> reactions, which were not uncommon.
> 
> It may surprise some honest abortion-foes to learn that NOW fought such 
> policies vehemently, by the way.  The reasoning is relevant here.  NOW and 
> other wrongly described "pro-abortion" groups currently working in the US 
> support a basic principle that simplifies the whole issue: the individual 
> liberty, autonomy, freedom, however you want to describe it, of a woman as 
> well as a man to decide what happens to her physically, sexually, and in 
> particular in terms of being pregnant or not.  As such it is the most 
> fundamental libertarian political right.
> 
> Critics of the "pro-choice" movement rightly point out that such decisions, 
> often difficult enough in themselves, do not happen in an economic vacuum - 
> and so are not truly "free" choices.  Women and their families or support 
> networks (spouses, partners, siblings, parents, close friends) must at times 
> make tough decisions based on economic realities not of their own choosing. 
> Nowadays there are convincing statistical arguments that women overall have 
> very nearly caught up with men in terms of earning power, and the biggest 
> difference that lingers is that when women hit their child-bearing years they
>  fall behind and usually never catch up again.  Of course some men encounter 
> the same problem, but overall it is women.  For these and many other reasons 
> (oppressive parents, drug-use, birth defects) abortion is not always a "free"
> choice any more than a large family has been a real choice for billions of
> women for thousands of years - they do it in part because their choices are
> severely constrained.  This is not the only reason to support abortion rights
> of course.  The basic argument for the right is an argument for human dignity
> and autonomy, as I've said.  But this is the economic context that can't be
> ignored.
> 
> So publicly-funded childcare, maternity and paternity leave and other 
> employment considerations, free access to birth control and family planning 
> services, rational sex education, and free abortion on demand are and must be
>  all part of a comprehensive program of human rights that includes women as 
> valued equal members of society and not second-class citizens.  It is part of
>  why I believe the values of libertarianism require also the values of 
> socialism to be logically and humanly consistent.  It is why conservatives 
> who want to say they support women's rights and oppose racism and oppression 
> must pick and choose which freedoms they support, which pieces of the overall
>  reality they bring into their arguement.  And it's why liberals who want to 
> support abortion rights are not always allies in the struggle for women's 
> rights, but their programs do sometimes coincide.
> 
> Obama's move against the vicious "Mexico City" policy is progress, toward 
> allowing poor women and families in communities whose livelihoods we have 
> wrecked to at least find some maneuvering room in that disaster.  Reagan's 
> and both Bushes' policy of limiting the options of the global poor, often our
>  own victims, is oppression on top of oppression; lifting that ban is at
> least mild relief.  It isn't enough, but it is a step in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Ricky
> 
> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> *From:* E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> *To:* Ricky Baldwin 
> <baldwinricky at yahoo.com> *Cc:* peace discuss 
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; socialist forum core 
> <sf-core at yahoogroups.com> *Sent:* Friday, January 23, 2009 5:13:10 PM 
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right
> 
> Ricky,
> 
> I find Obama to be quite consistent in his policy.  He supports the killing 
> of innocents both at home and abroad, both with his warfare and with his 
> "welfare".  One can't say that Obama is incoherent as an international 
> minister of death.
> 
> Abortion is the most explicit expression of racism and class warfare in our 
> contemporary world. It is the most dastardly and cowardly of all human rights
>  violations, since it violates the most fundamental Natural Right, the Right 
> to Life, and it attacks the Unborn, who are completely helpless.
> 
> The operative social purpose of abortion is to rid the society of "human 
> weeds".  The founders of Planned Parenthood identified as the poor and the 
> Negro as undesirables who should not be allowed to reproduce. Have you read 
> Margaret Sanger's writings? Have you read about her "Negro Project"?
> 
> I have some commentary at my website: 
> http://www.liberty4urbana.com/drupal-6.8/node/43 I hope that you will watch 
> the three videos there and then report back with your take on those issues.
> 
> Also, *Lux Libertas* will be broadcast again on UPTV-6 at 10 pm Sunday night.
> 
> 
> 
> Trent Cloin and I discuss the paradox and error of Abortion in America in the
>  first 30 mins. In the 2nd 30 minutes we discuss MLK's April 9, 1967 speech 
> "The Three Dimensions of a Complete Life" which was given in Chicago just 5 
> days after the "Beyond Vietnam" speech we all heard last Sunday afternoon. 
> "Three Dimensions" does significantly address aspects of the "Revolution of 
> Values" which King called for in "Beyond Vietnam".
> 
> Wayne
> 
> Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>> Put this one in the column of real differences, differences that matter to 
>> poor people's lives, among US presidents:
>> 
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_abortion_ban
>> 
>> This is not as groundbreaking as closing Guantanamo Bay prison.  As the 
>> article says, Clinton did the same.  Still, it speaks to the tone Obama is 
>> setting in his first week in office.  And if Obama didn't do this, we'd be 
>> right to call him out for failing to act.
>> 
>> Ricky
>> 
>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
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> 
> 
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