[Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right
Brussel Morton K.
mkbrussel at comcast.net
Sun Jan 25 22:04:44 CST 2009
I believe you understand, but you'll never admit it. I obviously have
no power to stop anyone from saying anything, but I do have opinions
as to what is appropriate. This list serve is intended to be a peace
forum , not an evangelist soapbox. This is a not untypical distortion,
of the bait and switch variety. --mkb
On Jan 25, 2009, at 4:21 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was
> Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're in
> favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise.
> Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech.
>
>
> Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>> Indeed, I wish and recommend that discussions of God's immanence,
>> how "we" are a Christian country, and why women's ability to decide
>> their own lives should be forbidden are inappropriate for a peace-
>> discuss list. (I wouldn't recommend Nazi propaganda on the list
>> either, but I suppose to some that would be bigoted.) --mkb
>> On Jan 25, 2009, at 3:15 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>> This is an assertion of settled religious prejudice, joined to the
>>> anti-liberal view that people who disagree with such bigotry
>>> should just shut up.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>>> A fine discussion, Ricky, but I for one am less forgiving of the
>>>> religious fundamentalism-ideology that largely supports the anti-
>>>> abortion/anti-contraception/anti-sex education/anti-women's
>>>> rights movement in the USA, and those who now speak up for it on
>>>> this listserve. They are beyond convincing because of their
>>>> "faith". I can understand that you may not want to get into a
>>>> discussion of the myths , religiously inspired, that form a basis
>>>> of this movement, a movement largely of willful ignorance and
>>>> lack off empathy for many woman's problems when confronted with a
>>>> pregnancy. They have unreasoning empathy only for the myth of the
>>>> humanity of a sperm which happens, divinely, to meet an egg. --Mort
>>>> I admired your remark: " the values of libertarianism require
>>>> also the values of socialism to be logically and humanly
>>>> consistent", although I think that the libertarianism of Wayne et
>>>> al. are contradictory to broader social(ist) values and
>>>> responsibilities. And I agree with others that this kind of
>>>> fundamentalism has no useful place on this list. On Jan 25, 2009,
>>>> at 2:11 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>>> Wayne,
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate your concern, as always, for the downtrodden, but
>>>>> I'm afraid it's misapplied here. Many people I agree with on
>>>>> most issues would dismiss yours and others' anti-abortion views
>>>>> as another example of your religious blinders; I don't. My
>>>>> guess is that you are both as sincere and as misguided and the
>>>>> many good humanitarians who supported, e.g. the US attacks in
>>>>> Kosovo (to save the ethnic Albanians from Serbian aggression) or
>>>>> the US conquest of the Philippines (to save the locals from
>>>>> Spanish tyranny, etc.) or the British conquest of India (to rid
>>>>> the Indians of superstition and slavery, etc.).
>>>>>
>>>>> But for starters, I think you will have to admit that the
>>>>> ethical question of abortion rights has little to do with
>>>>> Margaret Sanger's infamous Social Darwinism (which is anyway not
>>>>> quite the way her later critics portray it, it seems to me), any
>>>>> more than your own Christian views are questionable in light of
>>>>> the Crusades, the Inquisition, the European 'civilizing'
>>>>> campaigns that masscred millions of indigenous people on one
>>>>> continent after another, or the many other Christian atrocities
>>>>> against the poor and downtrodden of the world.
>>>>> The question of whether abortion is a form of racism, or class
>>>>> oppression, is more complex in some ways, though actually very
>>>>> simple if looked at rightly, I'd argue. True, abortion has been
>>>>> visited on the poor and people of color in this country and
>>>>> others as an oppressive campaign at times. We can go further:
>>>>> forced abortions and forced sterilizations have been practised
>>>>> as genocide for at least generations. Less overtly public
>>>>> welfare policies have targetted oppressed groups in many ways
>>>>> from the days of workhouses, -- up to and including reproductive
>>>>> policies my fellow NOW organizers and I encountered (as an
>>>>> example) in Mississippi in the 1990s whereby the locally
>>>>> administered Medicaid program would pay for poor women to have
>>>>> subdermal contraceptive Norplant insertions BUT NOT pay to have
>>>>> them removed, regardless of the woman's wishes or even of the
>>>>> side-effects or allergic reactions, which were not uncommon.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may surprise some honest abortion-foes to learn that NOW
>>>>> fought such policies vehemently, by the way. The reasoning is
>>>>> relevant here. NOW and other wrongly described "pro-abortion"
>>>>> groups currently working in the US support a basic principle
>>>>> that simplifies the whole issue: the individual liberty,
>>>>> autonomy, freedom, however you want to describe it, of a woman
>>>>> as well as a man to decide what happens to her physically,
>>>>> sexually, and in particular in terms of being pregnant or not.
>>>>> As such it is the most fundamental libertarian political right.
>>>>>
>>>>> Critics of the "pro-choice" movement rightly point out that such
>>>>> decisions, often difficult enough in themselves, do not happen
>>>>> in an economic vacuum - and so are not truly "free" choices.
>>>>> Women and their families or support networks (spouses, partners,
>>>>> siblings, parents, close friends) must at times make tough
>>>>> decisions based on economic realities not of their own
>>>>> choosing. Nowadays there are convincing statistical arguments
>>>>> that women overall have very nearly caught up with men in terms
>>>>> of earning power, and the biggest difference that lingers is
>>>>> that when women hit their child-bearing years they fall behind
>>>>> and usually never catch up again. Of course some men encounter
>>>>> the same problem, but overall it is women. For these and many
>>>>> other reasons (oppressive parents, drug-use, birth defects)
>>>>> abortion is not always a "free" choice any more than a large
>>>>> family has been a real choice for billions of women for
>>>>> thousands of years - they do it in part because their choices
>>>>> are severely constrained. This is not the only reason to
>>>>> support abortion rights of course. The basic argument for the
>>>>> right is an argument for human dignity and autonomy, as I've
>>>>> said. But this is the economic context that can't be ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>> So publicly-funded childcare, maternity and paternity leave and
>>>>> other employment considerations, free access to birth control
>>>>> and family planning services, rational sex education, and free
>>>>> abortion on demand are and must be all part of a comprehensive
>>>>> program of human rights that includes women as valued equal
>>>>> members of society and not second-class citizens. It is part of
>>>>> why I believe the values of libertarianism require also the
>>>>> values of socialism to be logically and humanly consistent. It
>>>>> is why conservatives who want to say they support women's rights
>>>>> and oppose racism and oppression must pick and choose which
>>>>> freedoms they support, which pieces of the overall reality they
>>>>> bring into their arguement. And it's why liberals who want to
>>>>> support abortion rights are not always allies in the struggle
>>>>> for women's rights, but their programs do sometimes coincide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obama's move against the vicious "Mexico City" policy is
>>>>> progress, toward allowing poor women and families in communities
>>>>> whose livelihoods we have wrecked to at least find some
>>>>> maneuvering room in that disaster. Reagan's and both Bushes'
>>>>> policy of limiting the options of the global poor, often our own
>>>>> victims, is oppression on top of oppression; lifting that ban is
>>>>> at least mild relief. It isn't enough, but it is a step in the
>>>>> right direction.
>>>>> Ricky
>>>>>
>>>>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag <mailto:ewj at pigs.ag>>
>>>>> *To:* Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com <mailto:baldwinricky at yahoo.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> *Cc:* peace discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> >>; socialist forum core <sf-core at yahoogroups.com <mailto:sf-core at yahoogroups.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 23, 2009 5:13:10 PM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right
>>>>>
>>>>> Ricky,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find Obama to be quite consistent in his policy. He supports
>>>>> the killing of innocents both at home and abroad,
>>>>> both with his warfare and with his "welfare". One can't say
>>>>> that Obama is incoherent as an international minister of death.
>>>>>
>>>>> Abortion is the most explicit expression of racism and class
>>>>> warfare in our contemporary world. It is the most dastardly and
>>>>> cowardly of all human rights violations, since it violates the
>>>>> most fundamental Natural Right,
>>>>> the Right to Life, and it attacks the Unborn, who are completely
>>>>> helpless.
>>>>>
>>>>> The operative social purpose of abortion is to rid the society
>>>>> of "human weeds". The founders
>>>>> of Planned Parenthood identified as the poor and the Negro as
>>>>> undesirables who should not be allowed to reproduce. Have you
>>>>> read Margaret Sanger's writings? Have you read about her "Negro
>>>>> Project"?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some commentary at my website: http://www.liberty4urbana.com/drupal-6.8/node/43
>>>>> I hope that you will watch the three videos there and then
>>>>> report back with your take on those issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, *Lux Libertas* will be broadcast again on UPTV-6 at 10 pm
>>>>> Sunday night.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trent Cloin and I discuss the paradox and error of Abortion in
>>>>> America in the first 30 mins.
>>>>> In the 2nd 30 minutes we discuss MLK's April 9, 1967 speech "The
>>>>> Three Dimensions of a Complete Life" which was
>>>>> given in Chicago just 5 days after the "Beyond Vietnam" speech
>>>>> we all heard last Sunday afternoon.
>>>>> "Three Dimensions" does significantly address aspects of the
>>>>> "Revolution of Values" which King called for in "Beyond Vietnam".
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne
>>>>>
>>>>> Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>>>> Put this one in the column of real differences, differences
>>>>>> that matter to poor people's lives, among US presidents:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_abortion_ban
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not as groundbreaking as closing Guantanamo Bay
>>>>>> prison. As the article says, Clinton did the same. Still, it
>>>>>> speaks to the tone Obama is setting in his first week in
>>>>>> office. And if Obama didn't do this, we'd be right to call him
>>>>>> out for failing to act.
>>>>>> Ricky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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