[Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right

[Ricky Baldwin]

:-)  Point taken.
 Ricky 


"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn 




________________________________
From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
To: Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
Cc: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; loriserb at loriserb.info; peace-discuss at anti-war.net
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:28:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right

Perhaps it would have been good to have taken the time to have constructed a full reply.

Ricky Baldwin wrote: 
Maybe it's a good thing I don't have time right now to give a full reply to this, but I find that I cannot let it pass.  Too many friends taking the brunt of this nonsense about "morality" - perhaps that's what we need to find a cure for, Wayne: this so-called "morality" that is so blind and ignorant and fearful that it mainfests itself as hate, bigotry, support for centuries of brutal oppression.

I once had a conversation with my grandmother about gods and devils.  In those days I was young and naive and believed in everything my family taught me about gods and devils, as well as morals.  I still believe what they taught me about morals.  I asked my grandmother, if a person hears an inner voice (or reads a tract, for that matter) how is a well-meaning human being to know whether it is the voice of angels/god/Jesus or the voice of devils?  By what the voice says, she told me, by what the voice says. 

I am not a religious person, so I generally do my best not to lecture religious people on religion.  I have a big mouth, however, and I am very mindful of ethics - and as in this case I feel obliged too speak up against evil.  This bigotry against people whose *desires* are different (of all things!) is evil.  It is as evil as racism, as woman-hating (whatever you want to call it), as the hatred of heretics and witches.

Not only is it not based on the biology it claims - anybody who has ever had dogs should know this, or quite a few other animals, anyone who knows much about actual and not idealized animal behavior, that is, humans or other animals, incl. mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians (see "Biological Exuberance" for an excellent cataloguing of non-missionary-style animal sexual behavior) - but, most importantly, it is not based on the *morality* it claims.

Friends, morality cannot derive from gods or other supernatural beings or the fear or love of them, any more than it derives from human legislation.  The question my old philosphy teacher (actually, my mother's - I was a guest in the class, playing hookey from school) raised to make his students think - Is the Good good because God wills it, or does God will it because it is good? - can have only one moral answer, if we accept the premises.  Our gods, if we have any, must always be judged by our morality and not the other way around.  My hillbilly grandmother knew that much.

This is contrary to certain teachings in the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, like the story of Abraham and Isaac.  So be it.  Our fellow human beings are more important than these texts, upon which in any event I understand that many adherents disagree.
 Ricky 


"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn 




________________________________
From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
To: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
Cc: loriserb at loriserb.info; peace-discuss at anti-war.net
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:27:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Obama gets another one right

Alienated?  Strong disagreement doesn't have to necessarily lead people to be disagreeable.

If your friend had chosen a different lifestyle he may have lived longer.  
The life expectancy of homosexual men and women is 20 to 30 years shorter than
the general population, not just due to "AIDS" but also due to accidents, heart disease, homicides,
and suicide.  It seems that the benefits of working out a cure for homosexuality rather than
assimilating it are significant.

I havent been ignoring your questions. I will go back and see what I missed.  
I should not shy from controversy nor your questions.

Your hypotheses are interesting but difficult to test, but I don't believe that homosexuality is 
obligatory.  One might be hot tempered but not allow rage to proceed to homicide.  One could
be tempted by something seen, but not be a thief.

Going to look for your other questions that I must have missed...



John W. wrote: 
Wayne, you're diggin' yourself a deeper and deeper hole, man.  Your "reasoning" is based on Scripture much more than on biology, and a number of folks on this list have made it clear that they don't subscribe to the Bible as the ultimate repository of all Truth.  I know you do, but further attempts to convince everyone else will be futile and will alienate you from the rest of the group.  But what do I know?  Perhaps you WANT to be alienated.

If I based my opinions only on Scripture, I would believe as you do.  I used to believe as you do years ago.  But then I got to thinking a bit, or rather looking around me and observing what was actually happening in the real world.

My best "double-dating" buddy in high school turned out to be gay, and eventually died of AIDS, one of the early casualties.  In high school he dated girls, but he didn't really treat them the same way that other guys treated girls.  He loved to dance, but mostly so that he could be admired for his dancing skills.   He loved to look at himself in the mirror.  His favorite activity with women was to sit and talk about fashion, hair styles, makeup, etc.  At the time I thought he was a little odd compared to my other male friends, but I had never even heard of homosexuality in those days.  I was naive.  And he was my friend.

Eventually Marty got "turned out" by an older British gentleman, and ended up living in San Francisco for quite a few years with male roommates.

Looking back, I can't IMAGINE that my friend Marty made a "choice", at age 13, to have those feminine characteristics.  It's clear to me that he was born with a predilection to be gay.  And how can you hold someone morally accountable for something that is not a choice?

You call yourself a biologist, and you say that homosexuality is an aberration.  Let us try to reconcile seemingly disparate viewpoints.  Let us suppose, just for the sake of argument, that something goes slightly awry in the womb during the period of gestation, and more specifically during the time of sexual development.  It is not inconceivable that the male fetus, for whatever reason, receives slightly too much estrogen and not enough testosterone.  For the female fetus it would be the reverse.  So they're born with a slight imbalance of hormones, which would be sufficient to alter their later gender attractions.  Is that not at least a biologically feasible hypothesis?  And if it is, how can you hold the child/adult morally accountable?

I note in passing that even my suggestion above will be utterly unacceptable to some on this list.

I also note that you, Wayne, tend not to reply to my questions.  I wonder why that is?  Am I simply too stupid for you?  Or could it be that you recognize that I know what is in your mind and heart a little too well?  Just asking.




On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 3:26 PM, E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag> wrote:


As I recall, we got into this via a celebration of Obama "Getting it Right".

'Twas not I who brought up the issue of Homosexuality but I did offer my opinion
once it was broached.  I think it was the rearing of children by homosexuals which I
responded to, as that is definitely a case of the effect of adult behaviour negatively impacting children.
Since the state is involved in legal adoptions, I would not favour the placement of adopted children
or foster children into homosexual environments, nor into single parent homes, recognizing that
some people I consider to be friends will disagree on this point. 
There are others, potentially enemies of the US, who view this society as decadent and they
do seek to condemn and threaten this society and thus provide stimulus to our warmongers.  I did not suggest
any particular action against homosexuals.  Finding the cause and treating the problem at its
roots seems desirable as an option.  Some people in our society have even suggested capital punishment. I did not.  I do want to see a halt to the recruitment and promotion of homosexuality.
While I think that law is rather incapable of inducing morality, I don't think immorality should be celebrated.

We don't celebrate political corruption or theft or warmongering as acceptable behaviours.
Homosexuality is likewise immoral and it is in the same class of pathologic sexual behaviour as
adultery,  rape, and child molestation.  Some aberrent sexual behaviours include a component of
violence and some do not.  It does contribute to the destructuring of the society.

Dr. King whom we celebrated last week, also taught that Reality hinges on Moral Foundations.
I don't think that we can achieve full potential as a society if we embrace and promote immoral
behaviours.  There is a general negative effect on the non-participants.

I would not agree that the practice of a homosexual lifestyle is a private matter because
it is becoming pervasive and widely advertised as a reasonable alternative option to a heterosexual
lifestyle. 


Bob Illyes wrote:


Mort wrote "Indeed, I wish and recommend that discussions of God's immanence, how "we" are a Christian country, and why women's ability to decide their own lives should be forbidden are inappropriate for a peace-discuss list. (I wouldn't recommend Nazi propaganda on the list either, but I suppose to some that would be bigoted.)"

Indeed. Why strive for peace when we can have wars over sexuality and religion, eh? This sort of thinking gave us the Spanish Inquisition, witch burning, and the Holocaust. Why stop now?

Wayne commented regarding same-sex couples with children that he is "amazed that this sort of sick stuff is going on so close by." WHAT???

Want to take this back, Wayne? Calling people you don't agree with "sick" is really out of line.

I agree with Lori's "Amen, Mort".

Bob


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/attachments/20090129/123613d6/attachment.htm