[Peace-discuss] Glenn Greenwald: Helen Thomas interrupts Obama
talking about Neda video to ask a real question
E. Wayne Johnson
ewj at pigs.ag
Wed Jun 24 14:48:01 CDT 2009
The Reason that they don't end the war is that there is No Reason to End
the War.
(no one is providing any substantive and convincing reason... these
folks care nothing for common logic...)
On 6/24/2009 2:21 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
> As much as I adore GG, I agree w/ the WH on this one. The parallels
> are betw current crack down on protesters in Iran and w/ the US's Kent
> State and possibly Seattle and certainly civil rights protests in the
> 60s (and e g Tienemen Sq in China, etc, etc, etc).
> The supression of the torture, etc photos is something entirely
> different, the lessons of their publication being Salman Rushdie and
> the Danish photos multiplied by an incalculable amount... ergo the
> advisability of NOT publishing them, imho. That being said, there MUST
> be investigation of- and consequences for those at all levels who are
> responsible.
> And meanwhile, can we PLEASE end these damned US wars??? Hardly
> anything about protests against those in the news these days, despite
> heartbreaking stories every day, speaking of appalling...
> --Jenifer
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 6/24/09, E. Wayne Johnson /<ewj at pigs.ag>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Glenn Greenwald: Helen Thomas
> interrupts Obama talking about Neda video to ask a real question
> To: "John Fettig" <john..fettig at gmail.com>
> Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 1:51 PM
>
> The fact that "we" (who ever that "we" is) find the Neda video
> shocking and iconic is a testimony to how far the once great
> American society has fallen.
>
> That's not to minimize the loss or the sorrow or the shame or the
> heroics of the dissenters.
>
> We are unfamiliar with Patriots and Tyrants resisting one another
> unto blood, and are shocked and mortified (vicariously) that real
> social change
> does actually require such a price. In fact, it is the collective
> and individual unwillingness to pay the price for a real
> government that accounts
> for the ersatz clown posse of looters that Americans seem to be
> willing to accept as "government".
>
> The tree of liberty demands frequent watering with the blood of
> tyrants and patriots.
> Those unwilling to see the price paid are both unworthy patriots
> and indeed rather silly tyrants as well.
>
> On the other hand, the utter depravity of torture and the stifling
> of dissent and the trashing of the Constitution doesnt
> put Americans in very good position for pointing out the faults of
> other nations.
>
> *Quo usque tandem abutere, America, patientia nostra*?
>
> One about half expects some thief to slip up on somnambulent
> America, and collectively render unto it the equivalent of being
> hit over the
> head with a "sock full of shit" as Patton warned. The other half
> expects the blessed event to provoke some loud and raucous
> cheering among
> those from whom we have well-deserved calumny and dishonour.
>
> It's not the only possible outcome, but it's the most likely we
> can't muster enough numbers and gumption to force real change not
> this Obacrap parsed
> with emphasis.
>
>
> On 6/24/2009 1:17 PM, John Fettig wrote:
>> http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/24/photos/index.html
>>
>>
>> The "Neda video," torture, and the truth-revealing power of
>> images
>>
>> *The President's remarks on the images of Iranian violence are in
>> conflict with his suppression efforts at home.*
>>
>> *Glenn Greenwald*
>>
>> Jun. 24, 2009 |
>>
> *(updated below - Update II - Update III)*
>
> The single most significant event in shaping worldwide revulsion
> towards the violence of the Iranian government has been the video
> of the young Iranian woman bleeding to death, the so-called "Neda
> video."
> <http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/21/iran.woman.twitter/>
> Like so many iconic visual images before it -- from My Lai, fire
> hoses and dogs unleashed at civil rights protesters, Abu Ghraib --
> that single image has done more than the tens of thousands of
> words to dramatize the violence and underscore the brutality of
> the state response.
>
> For the last question at his press conference yesterday
> <http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/23/politics/main5107407.shtml>,
> Obama was asked by CNN's Suzanne Malveaux about his reaction to
> that video and to reports that Iranians are refraining from
> protesting due to fear of such violence. As Obama was answering
> -- attesting to how "heartbreaking" he found the video; how
> "anybody who sees it knows that there's something fundamentally
> unjust" about the violence; and paying homage to "certain
> international norms of freedom of speech, freedom of expression"
> -- Helen Thomas, who hadn't been called on, interrupted to ask
> Obama to reconcile those statements about the Iranian images with
> his efforts at home to suppress America's own torture
> photos ("Then why won't you allow the photos --").
>
> The President quickly cut her off with these remarks:
>
> THE PRESIDENT: Hold on a second, Helen. That's a different
> question. (Laughter.)
>
> The White House Press corps loves to laugh condescendingly at
> Helen Thomas because, tenaciously insisting that our sermons to
> others be applied to our own Government, she acts like a real
> reporter (exactly as -- according to /Politic//o/'s Josh Gerstein
> <http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24087_Page2.html#ixzz0JHNOMKTP&D> --
> White House reporters "could be seen rolling their eyes and
> shifting in their seats" when Obama called
> on/The Huffington Post/'s Nico Pitney, who has done some of the
> most tireless work on Iran, gave voice to actual Iranians, and
> posed one of the toughest questions at the Press Conference). The
> premise of Thomas' question was compelling and (contrary to
> Obama's dismissal) directly relevant to Obama's answers: how is
> it possible for Obama to pay dramatic tribute to the
> "heartbreaking" impact of that Neda video in bringing to light the
> injustices of the Iranian Government's conduct while
> simultaneously suppressing images that do the same with regard to
> our own Government's conduct?
>
> The reason Thomas' point matters so much is potently highlighted
> by a new poll from /The Washington Post//ABC News released today
> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_062209.html?sid=ST2009062304056> --
> not only the responses, but even more so, the question itself
> *(/click to enlarge image/)*:
>
> <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SkIN8s-_saI/AAAAAAAAB8o/IfOUn4CieS8/s1600-h/torture.png>
>
> Half of the American citizenry is now explicitly pro-torture (and
> the question even specified that the torture would be used not
> against Terrorists, but "terrorist *suspects*"). Just think about
> what that says about how coarsened and barbaric our populace is
> and what types of abuses that entrenched mentality is certain to
> spawn in the future, particularly in the event of another
> terrorist attack. But even more meaningful is the question itself
> -- it's now normal and standard for pollsters to include among the
> various questions about garden-variety political controversies
> (health care, tax and spending policies, clean energy approaches)
> a question about whether one *believes the U.S. Government should
> torture people (are you for or against government torture?)*
> That's how normalized torture has become, how completely eroded
> the taboo is in the United States.
>
> It would be one thing for the Obama administration to argue that
> there is no value in releasing torture photos specifically, and in
> investigating and imposing accountability for past abuses
> generally, if there were consensus among Americans that torture is
> wrong, barbaric and -- as Ronald Reagan put it
> <http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/01/shifts/> (hypocritically
> <http://www.democracynow.org/2005/2/18/promoting_the_ambassador_of_torture_bush> but
> still emphatically) -- "an abhorrent practice" justifiable by "*no
> exceptional circumstances whatsoever*." But we have the opposite
> of that consensus: we have an ongoing debate over torture that is
> fluid, vibrant and far from settled, with half the population
> embracing the twisted and morally depraved pro-torture position.
> For that reason, to suppress evidence of what our torture actually
> looks like and the brutality it entails -- particularly graphic
> evidence -- is to make it easier for that pro-torture position to
> thrive, just as it would have been easier for the
> Iranian Government to slaughter protesters with impunity if they
> had succeeded in suppressing the images of what they were
> doing (it was this same dynamic that led the Israeli Army to defy
> its own Supreme Court and forcibly block reporters and
> photographers from entering Gaza
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07media.html> and
> which caused the embedded American press to suppress images of the
> massive civilian deaths
> <http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/truths-consequences-by-digby-since.html>which
> their protectors, the U.S. military, was causing in Iraq).
>
> Americans are able to perceive torture clinically and in the
> abstract when they're able to endorse it without seeing its
> effects. They're able to delude themselves that the extreme
> abuses at Abu Ghraib were unauthorized aberrations -- rather than
> the inevitable by-products of the policies they support -- because
> the photos showing that those abuses were systematically applied
> at American detention facilities around the world are being
> suppressed. It's almost certainly true that few pro-torture
> Americans are aware that the policies they support -- and that
> were approved at the highest levels of the U.S. government -- have
> led to numerous detainee deaths, because investigations into such
> matters are being blocked; court proceedings impeded; and media
> discussions confined almost exclusively to questions about "water
> in nostrils." If Americans want to endorse government torture,
> they should not be allowed to avert their gaze from what they're
> causing and be spared the facts and details of what is done.
>
> * * * * *
>
> On a related note, the critique I wrote
> <http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/22/npr/index.html> of
> the NPR Ombudsman's defense of their decision not to use the word
> "torture" has been discussed
> <http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/calling-it-torture.html> in
> numerous places
> <http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/examining-runes-by-digby-greenwald-has.html>.
> There has also been an outburst of angry (though highly
> substantive and civil) criticisms from NPR listeners in the
> comment section of her column
> <http://www.npr.org/ombudsman/2009/06/harsh_interrogation_techniques.html>.
> As a result, we're in the process of inviting the Ombudsman,
> Alicia Shepard, to appear with me on /Salon Radio/ to discuss her
> rationale. Ostensibly, the Ombudsman is not meant to be a
> spokesperson for NPR but a voice of NPR listeners. I would hope,
> then, that she'd be willing to engage and discuss the reaction
> which her column triggered (at the very least in her column,
> though even better, in an interactive discussion). I will post
> updates of any responses we receive to the invitation extended to
> her.
>
> _*UPDATE*_: The media
> <http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0609/Obama_calls_on_HuffPost_for_Iran_question.html?showall>-manufactured
> <http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/sluggahjells/2009/06/cbs-mark-knoller-does-senseles.php?ref=reccafe> (and,
> as always, right-wing-fueled
> <http://www.memeorandum.com/090623/p69#a090623p69>) pseudo-controversy
> over Obama's "pre-coordinated" selection of /Huffington Post/'s
> Pitney to ask a question is revealingly inane for many obvious
> reasons: Pitney's question was one of the most adversarial Obama
> was asked, and the establishment media reaction clearly stems from
> resentment over their perceived status being undermined by
> allowing /The Huffington Post/ and, more to the point, an actual
> Iranian (rather than a self-anointed reporter-spokesperson for
> Iranians) to ask the President a question.
>
> But equally revealing is their self-glorifying and delusional
> belief that only establishment media reporters are sufficiently
> Serious to be entitled to ask the President questions -- even as
> they fill Press Conferences with petty, vapid questions and
> otherwise endlessly reveal themselves to be substance-free and
> frivolous. Along those lines, /The Washington Post/ claimed
> <http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/the-purge-of-froomkin-.html>that
> "budgetary constraints" played a role in the firing of actually
> serious journalist Dan Froomkin, yet /The Post/ spends money to
> produce and promote things like the below-posted video
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwyEbuWeso> from "reporters" Dana
> Milbank and Chris Cillizza that has to be seen to be believed. Be
> forewarned: many will consider the video too petty to bother
> posting and virtually everyone will find it painfully irritating
> to watch. I agree with those assessments, but there is still
> something about it -- the oozing smugness, the view of politics as
> a juvenile game, the desperation to be above it all and too
> sophisticated to care, the total lack of self-awareness in failing
> to realize how embarrassingly unfunny it is -- that makes it a
> /tour de force/ in illustrating what and who so much of the
> Washington media really are:
>
> _*UPDATE II*_: We were told by NPR that the Ombudsman is out of
> the office this week and her office will get back to us by Monday
> with a response. Additionally, someone from the Ombudsman's
> office also just left the following note in the still-growing
> comment section to her column
> <http://www.npr.org/ombudsman/2009/06/comments/harsh_interrogation_techniques.html>:
>
>
> Dear Listeners;
>
> Ms. Shepard is out of the office this week. I work closely
> with her and have been keeping up with all of your comments.
> Rest assured that when she returns she will respond to you.
>
> In the meantime, I wanted to let you know that there is
> someone on the other end reading and receiving your phone
> calls and emails.
>
> Best,
>
> Anna Tauzin
>
> Office of the Ombudsman
>
> The feedback and pressure are obviously having some effect.
> I hope it continues; I would look forward to the opportunity to
> discuss Shepard's column with her in an interview.
>
> _*UPDATE III*_: Bridging Update I and Update II: the /Post/'s
> Dana Milbank was, completely unsurprisingly, one of the leaders in
> objecting to the /Huffington Post//Pitney question
> <http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018747.php>. He's
> probably best advised to stick to /Post/-funded vaudeville videos.
> /The Nation/'s Ari Melber has an excellent analysis
> <http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/445637> of the petulant,
> self-absorbed objections as part of this empty little scandal of
> the day. This empty chatter is the sort of thing with which they
> endlessly occupy themselves -- all while condescendingly scorning
> Helen Thomas' real questions and acting as though questions from
> /The Huffington Post /are a major threat to their protocols of
> journalistic Seriousness.
>
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