[Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

Marti Wilkinson martiwilki at gmail.com
Sat Mar 7 20:38:33 CST 2009 

I have answered your question. YOU are just not satisfied with the answer.

I am done with this conversation and I am done with the Peace-Discuss list.
Stuart can verify that I have unsubscribed from the list.

Please do not email me again on this subject.



On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 7:55 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:

>  You still have not answered my question !
>
> David J.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
> *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> ; AWARE peace<peace at lists.chambana.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 7:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>
> You are avoiding my original question....
>
> Really?
>
> " What IS your definition of enpowerment?"
>
> Taking the talk and putting it to action! It's short, sweet, and to the
> point. It is also in my prior post.
>
> I also understand why this particular message board has been referred to as
> "Peace-Disgust" - While I would hate to miss out on any announcements
> towards interesting events I am starting to get tired of my inbox being
> filled with this crap.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:37 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>  So Marti !
>>
>> Good point you made about too lengthy of postings, BUT......
>>
>> You are avoiding my origianl question....
>>
>> " What IS your definition of enpowerment ?
>>
>> David Johnson
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 1:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>
>> Taking the 'talk' and putting it to action. Martel Miller had some very
>> sharp things to say at the last peoples potluck, he pointed out that it
>> seems like all we are doing is talking, talking, talking and there is
>> nothing really productive coming from the conversation. Seriously, has this
>> particular discussion really managed to do anything other than showcase the
>> attitudes and beliefs of the participants? I'm including myself in this as
>> well.
>>
>> I agree with John that as human beings we need to speak out for one
>> another. We are all neighbors of this planet regardless of our political and
>> socioeconomic affiliation, but there is a need to be cognizant of key
>> differences and to be willing to work through them.
>>
>> Lastly, I would suggest that everyone who participates here keep in mind
>> that very very long emails often are not the most effective ways to
>> communicate ideas. If someone feels the need to post the equivalent of a
>> magazine article or book chapter it would be more productive to have a blog
>> and provide a link where users can leave comments. Here the conversation can
>> veer in so many directions it veers away from the original intent of the
>> thread. Again this is simply a suggestion and not an attempt to dictate what
>> people should say or do here.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:17 AM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  So what is your definition of enpowerment Marti ?
>>>
>>> David J.
>>>
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>> *Cc:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:49 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>
>>> The problem with being an advocate for social justice and empowerment is
>>> it may also end up inadvertently lend itself to what a professor of mine
>>> called "privileging the discourse" - For example if a person lives in Garden
>>> Hills or the Douglass Park neighborhood it can be problematic when anyone
>>> decides these are parts of the community in need of 'fixing'. One time I
>>> posted some concerns about plans in the Garden Hills area and some of the
>>> feedback I received was so condescending as to make me want to retch. On
>>> another occasion I was talking with a woman who attended the U of I and
>>> chose to wear a head scarf as a show of modesty, she said she found it
>>> offensive when people responded to her as some poor oppressed Muslim woman.
>>>
>>> My idea as to what it means to be empowered may not be the same as that
>>> of other individuals in this forum and that is perfectly fine. That being
>>> said I also think that part of advocating for social justice is being
>>> willing to deconstruct ones own privilege and taking a look at oneself.
>>> While I can't address Ricky's comments directly, there is a sentiment or
>>> tone that I can relate to - because there seems to be an effort to
>>> pontificate on, instead of really understanding a particular issue or
>>> subject matter. Furthermore, why should someone who has some privilege even
>>> attempt to 'speak for' marginalized groups? This is a tricky situation and
>>> one where a road to hell can be paved with good intentions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:25 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ricky, et al,
>>>>
>>>> Carl and his wife live a comfortable middle class life.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think they should have to appologize for that,
>>>>
>>>> They have had the blessings of the perfect triad ; hard work,
>>>> intelligence, and luck.
>>>>
>>>> What makes them special, is that they could easily take the attitude
>>>> that anyone not like them are losers !
>>>>
>>>> Carl's wife works MANY hours at the Catholic Worker  House helping and
>>>> feeding the poor ( which could be any of us and many of us if economic
>>>> conditions deteriorate badly enough ).
>>>> Carl and his wife are NOT just about advocating charity, but ENPOWERMENT
>>>> as well !
>>>>
>>>> I must say though, Carl is a " class traitor ", that is, a traitor to
>>>> the ruling class !
>>>> And I love him for it !
>>>>
>>>> It is admirable that Carl is not ashamed of his Irish working class
>>>> roots, who ( the Irish ) were exploited and worked to death for little
>>>> compensation, like African Americans, Eastern Eurpopeans, and multitudes of
>>>> others in the plantation they call America.
>>>>
>>>> If Carl was like many people in this society, he would cover-up his
>>>> working class heritage, but instead he acknowledges it and learns from it,
>>>> to critique the current remnants of the plantation mentality / imperialist
>>>> institutional structure in this society.
>>>> Even if we may disagree at times with some of his views, we should
>>>> respect him for the time and effort he puts into ;  articulating, analyzing,
>>>> and advocating for a better country and a better world, for ALL of us.
>>>>
>>>> My hat is off to Carl and his wonderful wife for being who they are and
>>>> doing what so few are willing to do in contemporary America.... " walk it
>>>> like they talk it " !
>>>>
>>>> They can't help the way they are, and I am honored to know them !
>>>>
>>>> David Johnson
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" <
>>>> galliher at illinois.edu>
>>>> To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>>> > Carl,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I've been to your house, seen your car in the lot.
>>>>> > When it comes to the reckoning you get diddly squat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ricky--
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading "I have" for "I've" and "reck'ning" for "reckoning," you have a
>>>>> couplet in anapestic tetrameter.  (Cf. Byron's "The Destruction of
>>>>> Sennacherib":
>>>>>
>>>>>    The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold
>>>>>    And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold
>>>>>    And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea
>>>>>    When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.)
>>>>>
>>>>> And your couplet makes me think, in verse, why I left my island home in
>>>>> Massachusetts:
>>>>>
>>>>>    There once was a man from Nantucket
>>>>>    Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
>>>>>    But his daughter, named Nan,
>>>>>    Ran away with a man
>>>>>    And as for the bucket, Nantucket.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Which reminds me -- I should call my financial advisor, Bernie Madoff
>>>>> -- "Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do.")
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>> My Attorney Bernie
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with his influential friends
>>>>>  He's got very big connections
>>>>>  and I follow his directions
>>>>>  Bernie knows his way around
>>>>>  and so I always do what Bernie recommends.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I am blessed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with the way he runs the store
>>>>>  He's got Dodger season boxes
>>>>>  and an office full of foxes
>>>>>  It's amazing all the different things
>>>>>  your average guy might need a lawyer for.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  Bernie tells me what to do
>>>>>  Bernie always lays it on the line
>>>>>  Bernie says we sue, we sue
>>>>>  Bernie says we sign -- we sign.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'm in touch, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  In a clutch, he can speed right to the scene
>>>>>  and if I'm locked up in the jail
>>>>>  with just one phone call for my bail
>>>>>  he said to call his club collect
>>>>>  or deal directly with his answering machine
>>>>>
>>>>>  When I dine, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  He buys wine, from the rare imported rack
>>>>>  That's cause Bernie is a purist
>>>>>  not your polyester tourist
>>>>>  Bernie waves the glass around awhile
>>>>>  then takes a sip and always sends it back
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  I admire, my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I admire, any guy who knows his stuff
>>>>>  Sure we blew a couple ventures
>>>>>  with a counterfeit debenture
>>>>>  But you win a few, you lose a few
>>>>>  and like Bernie says you keep on hanging tough
>>>>>
>>>>>  Thanks to you, my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do
>>>>>  Sure I made out like a bandit
>>>>>  Just exactly like you planned it
>>>>>  But like Murray my accountant
>>>>>  told me yesterday, I owe it all to you.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  On the dotted line!
>>>>>
>>>>>  (Words and Music: Dave Frishberg)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>>>>>> *To:* naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>>>>> *Cc:* peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:03:20 PM
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get something because my Irish great-grandfather was an exploited
>>>>>> laborer in
>>>>>> 19c. Pennsylvania?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is (practically) no legal discrimination or popular prejudice
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> Irish-Americans today (altho' I could tell you stories from New
>>>>>> England...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>>  > I have no problem with making a distinction between legal
>>>>>> structures and popular attitudes. I was making a different point: that the
>>>>>> categories of "legal structures" and "popular attitudes" don't cover
>>>>>> "racism," unless one expands the categories of "legal structures" and
>>>>>> "popular attitudes" to include the absence of redress, since there are
>>>>>> tendencies for disparities created in the past to be self-perpetuating, even
>>>>>> in the absence of legal discrimination and popular prejudice.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>  >> It's worthwhile to distinguish between legal structures and
>>>>>> popular attitudes, even if there are areas where they shade into one another
>>>>>> (e.g.,
>>>>>>  >>  the non-enforcement of anti-discrimination laws, or prejudicial
>>>>>> police practice). The same is true of night and day.
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> The civil rights movement ended legal segregation and contributed
>>>>>> to conscientization of some regarding racial prejudice. For others, it
>>>>>> increased racial prejudice (e.g., whites who concluded "the government does
>>>>>>  >>  everything for black people!").
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> The latter reaction was encouraged by the long-standing elite
>>>>>> strategy of playing upon divisions in the working class -- and race was
>>>>>> always a potent
>>>>>>  >>  division, as limited success of 20th-century union organizing in
>>>>>> the South
>>>>>>  >>  shows.
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> Jay Gould, American financier at the turn of the last century,
>>>>>> remarked, "I
>>>>>>  >>  can always hire one-nalf of the American working class to kill
>>>>>> the other half."  He was not referring specifically to race, but it helped.
>>>>>> --CGE
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>>  >>> "legal" seems too narrow. economic discrimination can persist in
>>>>>> the absence of laws enforcing discrimination. in fact, discrimination can
>>>>>> persist without being strongly reinforced by censorious attitudes, through
>>>>>> customs and practices that may seem nominally neutral but have the effect of
>>>>>> reproducing existing disparities.
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>> for example: a legacy of British colonial policies in Northern
>>>>>> Ireland was that Protestant workers disproportionately held factory jobs. a
>>>>>> foreman comes before the workers and says,"we have a few openings." workers
>>>>>> tell friends, neighbors, cousins. as a result, the applicant pool
>>>>>>  >>>  is all Protestants, and only Protestants get the jobs. no law
>>>>>> said only Protestants would get the jobs. and censorious attitudes didn't
>>>>>> have to be particularly strong for people to spread the news to their social
>>>>>> circles which happened to be overwhelmingly Protestant. in such a situation,
>>>>>> you would need affirmative action for redress. it isn't sufficient to say,
>>>>>> there are no discriminatory laws, and the censorious attitudes aren't so
>>>>>> bad.
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>  >>>> [Racism refers to legal structures that penalize groups defined
>>>>>> by descent. Racial prejudice refers to censorious attitudes towards groups
>>>>>>  >>>>  defined by descent.  Both are present in Israel. Racism, but
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>  >>>> racial prejudice, is now largely absent in the US (altho' some,
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>  >>>> native Americans, may justly not think so).  --CGE]
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> March 4, 2009 SEGREGATION IN ISRAEL
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Israeli Association for Civil Rights
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Some 55 percent of Jewish Israelis say that the state should
>>>>>> encourage
>>>>>>  >>>>  Arab emigration;
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 78 percent of Jewish Israelis oppose including Arab parties in
>>>>>> the government;
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 56 percent agree with the statement that 'Arabs cannot attain
>>>>>> the Jewish level of cultural development'
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent agree that Arabs are inclined to be violent. Among
>>>>>> Arab-Israelis, 54 percent feel the same way about Jews.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent of Israeli Jews say they would not live in the same
>>>>>> building
>>>>>>  >>>>  as Arabs.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> http://prorev.com/2009/03/segregation-in-israel.html_______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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