[Peace] Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

Mark Morenz marketype at yahoo.com
Sun Mar 8 11:50:05 CDT 2009 

Hi Everyone:

My name is Mark. Normally I just lurk, but this seemed to me to be a strong
thread (mostly, I think, because of attempts to ground it in Mr. Miller's
powerful statement during the potluck).

I was honored, btw, to be invited to the potluck by my friend Lori and I
left thinking how powerful that forum could become if, as someone has
suggested, wider and wider audiences could see it resulting in actual
actions.. I hope to have some ideas along those lines soon as I will be
spending some time in the upcoming months shadowing local Asst. DAs and
attending arraignment hearings; I look forward to new perspectives those
activities will give me concerning local Social Justice issues. I am also
currently attending the Citizen's Police Academy (for similar reasons).

If the potluck would like to form a Marketing Committee, for example, I'd be
happy to take part.

As to this thread proper, discussions about entire groups of people (like
'races') can be very counter-productive. Especially since I think we all can
agree that the Amish are the real cause of all our woes (and they don't read
our posts); but, SERIOUSLY, if actual organizations (institutions) can be
created and given specific missions to follow that are designed to address
specific needs (Books for Prisoners seems to be doing well, for example)
good works can happen.

Hang in there and thank Everyone for all you do.
:-{)]
-M



On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>wrote:

> You are avoiding my original question....
>
> Really?
>
> " What IS your definition of enpowerment?"
>
> Taking the talk and putting it to action! It's short, sweet, and to the
> point. It is also in my prior post.
>
> I also understand why this particular message board has been referred to as
> "Peace-Disgust" - While I would hate to miss out on any announcements
> towards interesting events I am starting to get tired of my inbox being
> filled with this crap.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:37 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>  So Marti !
>>
>> Good point you made about too lengthy of postings, BUT......
>>
>> You are avoiding my origianl question....
>>
>> " What IS your definition of enpowerment ?
>>
>> David Johnson
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 1:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>
>> Taking the 'talk' and putting it to action. Martel Miller had some very
>> sharp things to say at the last peoples potluck, he pointed out that it
>> seems like all we are doing is talking, talking, talking and there is
>> nothing really productive coming from the conversation. Seriously, has this
>> particular discussion really managed to do anything other than showcase the
>> attitudes and beliefs of the participants? I'm including myself in this as
>> well.
>>
>> I agree with John that as human beings we need to speak out for one
>> another. We are all neighbors of this planet regardless of our political and
>> socioeconomic affiliation, but there is a need to be cognizant of key
>> differences and to be willing to work through them.
>>
>> Lastly, I would suggest that everyone who participates here keep in mind
>> that very very long emails often are not the most effective ways to
>> communicate ideas. If someone feels the need to post the equivalent of a
>> magazine article or book chapter it would be more productive to have a blog
>> and provide a link where users can leave comments. Here the conversation can
>> veer in so many directions it veers away from the original intent of the
>> thread. Again this is simply a suggestion and not an attempt to dictate what
>> people should say or do here.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:17 AM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  So what is your definition of enpowerment Marti ?
>>>
>>> David J.
>>>
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>  *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
>>> *Cc:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:49 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>
>>> The problem with being an advocate for social justice and empowerment is
>>> it may also end up inadvertently lend itself to what a professor of mine
>>> called "privileging the discourse" - For example if a person lives in Garden
>>> Hills or the Douglass Park neighborhood it can be problematic when anyone
>>> decides these are parts of the community in need of 'fixing'. One time I
>>> posted some concerns about plans in the Garden Hills area and some of the
>>> feedback I received was so condescending as to make me want to retch. On
>>> another occasion I was talking with a woman who attended the U of I and
>>> chose to wear a head scarf as a show of modesty, she said she found it
>>> offensive when people responded to her as some poor oppressed Muslim woman.
>>>
>>> My idea as to what it means to be empowered may not be the same as that
>>> of other individuals in this forum and that is perfectly fine. That being
>>> said I also think that part of advocating for social justice is being
>>> willing to deconstruct ones own privilege and taking a look at oneself.
>>> While I can't address Ricky's comments directly, there is a sentiment or
>>> tone that I can relate to - because there seems to be an effort to
>>> pontificate on, instead of really understanding a particular issue or
>>> subject matter. Furthermore, why should someone who has some privilege even
>>> attempt to 'speak for' marginalized groups? This is a tricky situation and
>>> one where a road to hell can be paved with good intentions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:25 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ricky, et al,
>>>>
>>>> Carl and his wife live a comfortable middle class life.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think they should have to appologize for that,
>>>>
>>>> They have had the blessings of the perfect triad ; hard work,
>>>> intelligence, and luck.
>>>>
>>>> What makes them special, is that they could easily take the attitude
>>>> that anyone not like them are losers !
>>>>
>>>> Carl's wife works MANY hours at the Catholic Worker  House helping and
>>>> feeding the poor ( which could be any of us and many of us if economic
>>>> conditions deteriorate badly enough ).
>>>> Carl and his wife are NOT just about advocating charity, but ENPOWERMENT
>>>> as well !
>>>>
>>>> I must say though, Carl is a " class traitor ", that is, a traitor to
>>>> the ruling class !
>>>> And I love him for it !
>>>>
>>>> It is admirable that Carl is not ashamed of his Irish working class
>>>> roots, who ( the Irish ) were exploited and worked to death for little
>>>> compensation, like African Americans, Eastern Eurpopeans, and multitudes of
>>>> others in the plantation they call America.
>>>>
>>>> If Carl was like many people in this society, he would cover-up his
>>>> working class heritage, but instead he acknowledges it and learns from it,
>>>> to critique the current remnants of the plantation mentality / imperialist
>>>> institutional structure in this society.
>>>> Even if we may disagree at times with some of his views, we should
>>>> respect him for the time and effort he puts into ;  articulating, analyzing,
>>>> and advocating for a better country and a better world, for ALL of us.
>>>>
>>>> My hat is off to Carl and his wonderful wife for being who they are and
>>>> doing what so few are willing to do in contemporary America.... " walk it
>>>> like they talk it " !
>>>>
>>>> They can't help the way they are, and I am honored to know them !
>>>>
>>>> David Johnson
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" <
>>>> galliher at illinois.edu>
>>>> To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>>> > Carl,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I've been to your house, seen your car in the lot.
>>>>> > When it comes to the reckoning you get diddly squat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ricky--
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading "I have" for "I've" and "reck'ning" for "reckoning," you have a
>>>>> couplet in anapestic tetrameter.  (Cf. Byron's "The Destruction of
>>>>> Sennacherib":
>>>>>
>>>>>    The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold
>>>>>    And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold
>>>>>    And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea
>>>>>    When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.)
>>>>>
>>>>> And your couplet makes me think, in verse, why I left my island home in
>>>>> Massachusetts:
>>>>>
>>>>>    There once was a man from Nantucket
>>>>>    Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
>>>>>    But his daughter, named Nan,
>>>>>    Ran away with a man
>>>>>    And as for the bucket, Nantucket.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Which reminds me -- I should call my financial advisor, Bernie Madoff
>>>>> -- "Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do.")
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>> My Attorney Bernie
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with his influential friends
>>>>>  He's got very big connections
>>>>>  and I follow his directions
>>>>>  Bernie knows his way around
>>>>>  and so I always do what Bernie recommends.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I am blessed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I'm impressed, with the way he runs the store
>>>>>  He's got Dodger season boxes
>>>>>  and an office full of foxes
>>>>>  It's amazing all the different things
>>>>>  your average guy might need a lawyer for.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  Bernie tells me what to do
>>>>>  Bernie always lays it on the line
>>>>>  Bernie says we sue, we sue
>>>>>  Bernie says we sign -- we sign.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'm in touch, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  In a clutch, he can speed right to the scene
>>>>>  and if I'm locked up in the jail
>>>>>  with just one phone call for my bail
>>>>>  he said to call his club collect
>>>>>  or deal directly with his answering machine
>>>>>
>>>>>  When I dine, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  He buys wine, from the rare imported rack
>>>>>  That's cause Bernie is a purist
>>>>>  not your polyester tourist
>>>>>  Bernie waves the glass around awhile
>>>>>  then takes a sip and always sends it back
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  I admire, my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  I admire, any guy who knows his stuff
>>>>>  Sure we blew a couple ventures
>>>>>  with a counterfeit debenture
>>>>>  But you win a few, you lose a few
>>>>>  and like Bernie says you keep on hanging tough
>>>>>
>>>>>  Thanks to you, my attorney Bernie
>>>>>  Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do
>>>>>  Sure I made out like a bandit
>>>>>  Just exactly like you planned it
>>>>>  But like Murray my accountant
>>>>>  told me yesterday, I owe it all to you.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>>
>>>>>  On the dotted line!
>>>>>
>>>>>  (Words and Music: Dave Frishberg)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>>>>>> *To:* naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>>>>> *Cc:* peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:03:20 PM
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get something because my Irish great-grandfather was an exploited
>>>>>> laborer in
>>>>>> 19c. Pennsylvania?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is (practically) no legal discrimination or popular prejudice
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> Irish-Americans today (altho' I could tell you stories from New
>>>>>> England...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>>  > I have no problem with making a distinction between legal
>>>>>> structures and popular attitudes. I was making a different point: that the
>>>>>> categories of "legal structures" and "popular attitudes" don't cover
>>>>>> "racism," unless one expands the categories of "legal structures" and
>>>>>> "popular attitudes" to include the absence of redress, since there are
>>>>>> tendencies for disparities created in the past to be self-perpetuating, even
>>>>>> in the absence of legal discrimination and popular prejudice.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>  >> It's worthwhile to distinguish between legal structures and
>>>>>> popular attitudes, even if there are areas where they shade into one another
>>>>>> (e.g.,
>>>>>>  >>  the non-enforcement of anti-discrimination laws, or prejudicial
>>>>>> police practice). The same is true of night and day.
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> The civil rights movement ended legal segregation and contributed
>>>>>> to conscientization of some regarding racial prejudice. For others, it
>>>>>> increased racial prejudice (e.g., whites who concluded "the government does
>>>>>>  >>  everything for black people!").
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> The latter reaction was encouraged by the long-standing elite
>>>>>> strategy of playing upon divisions in the working class -- and race was
>>>>>> always a potent
>>>>>>  >>  division, as limited success of 20th-century union organizing in
>>>>>> the South
>>>>>>  >>  shows.
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> Jay Gould, American financier at the turn of the last century,
>>>>>> remarked, "I
>>>>>>  >>  can always hire one-nalf of the American working class to kill
>>>>>> the other half."  He was not referring specifically to race, but it helped.
>>>>>> --CGE
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  >> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>>  >>> "legal" seems too narrow. economic discrimination can persist in
>>>>>> the absence of laws enforcing discrimination. in fact, discrimination can
>>>>>> persist without being strongly reinforced by censorious attitudes, through
>>>>>> customs and practices that may seem nominally neutral but have the effect of
>>>>>> reproducing existing disparities.
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>> for example: a legacy of British colonial policies in Northern
>>>>>> Ireland was that Protestant workers disproportionately held factory jobs. a
>>>>>> foreman comes before the workers and says,"we have a few openings." workers
>>>>>> tell friends, neighbors, cousins. as a result, the applicant pool
>>>>>>  >>>  is all Protestants, and only Protestants get the jobs. no law
>>>>>> said only Protestants would get the jobs. and censorious attitudes didn't
>>>>>> have to be particularly strong for people to spread the news to their social
>>>>>> circles which happened to be overwhelmingly Protestant. in such a situation,
>>>>>> you would need affirmative action for redress. it isn't sufficient to say,
>>>>>> there are no discriminatory laws, and the censorious attitudes aren't so
>>>>>> bad.
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>  >>>> [Racism refers to legal structures that penalize groups defined
>>>>>> by descent. Racial prejudice refers to censorious attitudes towards groups
>>>>>>  >>>>  defined by descent.  Both are present in Israel. Racism, but
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>  >>>> racial prejudice, is now largely absent in the US (altho' some,
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>  >>>> native Americans, may justly not think so).  --CGE]
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> March 4, 2009 SEGREGATION IN ISRAEL
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Israeli Association for Civil Rights
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Some 55 percent of Jewish Israelis say that the state should
>>>>>> encourage
>>>>>>  >>>>  Arab emigration;
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 78 percent of Jewish Israelis oppose including Arab parties in
>>>>>> the government;
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 56 percent agree with the statement that 'Arabs cannot attain
>>>>>> the Jewish level of cultural development'
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent agree that Arabs are inclined to be violent. Among
>>>>>> Arab-Israelis, 54 percent feel the same way about Jews.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent of Israeli Jews say they would not live in the same
>>>>>> building
>>>>>>  >>>>  as Arabs.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> http://prorev.com/2009/03/segregation-in-israel.html_______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
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>>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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