[Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…

Sun Aug 1 23:50:56 CDT 2010

Actually, the quagmire talk is a give-away. That was Vietnam era short-hand for 
the liberal view that the US had accidentally got stuck in something it didn't 
understand and couldn't get free of.

As it was put at the dissident extreme in the NYT by Anthony Lewis (Rich's model 
and mentor?) in his final words evaluating the war in 1975, the war began with 
"blundering efforts to do good" but by 1969, namely a year after the American 
business community had turned it, it was clear that the United States "could not 
impose a solution except at a price too costly to itself," so therefore it was a 
"disastrous mistake." Nazi generals could have said the same thing after 
Stalingrad and probably did.

Is Rich's view in "Kiss This War Goodbye" much different? I see neither evidence 
for that nor the contradiction you mention.

On 8/1/10 10:40 PM, Morton K. Brussel wrote:
> David,
>
> Rich implied strongly in this article that "we" made terrible mistakes, as
> wiki-leaks confirms, and should get out. He writes in his conclusion: "/The one
> thing no one imagined back then [ during Vietnam times] was that four decades
> later it would be South Asia, not Southeast Asia, *that would still be beckoning
> America into a quagmire.*"/ That struck me as strongly implying " let's get out".
>
> True, he doesn't say what we all want said and acted upon, that it has been and
> continues to be a criminal, horrible, adventure engaged for the sake of U.S.
> imperial interests, but I'm willing to accept his admission that it is a
> quagmire, (in which no wants to be found). That is to me a positive statement we
> should not dismiss.
>
> Finally your remark that Rich implies, that "the Afghan war is on its downside,
> everyone knows it, so let's attend to other issues…" is clearly contradicted by
> the quote from Rich cited.
>
> Mort
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2010, at 10:10 PM, David Green wrote:
>
>> Mort, where in Rich's column does he express personal (no less moral)
>> opposition to the war? Where does he propose that anything should be done to
>> resist it? Who wants to be the last person to die for self-serving liberal NYT
>> columnists to maintain their place in the establishment?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu <mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>
>> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
>> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> *Sent:* Sun, August 1, 2010 7:14:55 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…
>>
>> I suppose I'm too insensitive and stupid to think that anything or argument
>> that says for us to get our bloody hands out of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran,
>> Pakistan and SE and ME is for the good. Even if the arguments come from Frank
>> Rich or Friedman (whom I refuse to read, because he gives me indigestion).
>> What is it with you guys who feel obliged to /condemn/ anything that comes out
>> that does not /precisely/ match what you want to be said. Now it's not only
>> Rich, but Paul Street. Who next?
>>
>> I recommend reading Street's article on ZNet, again.
>>
>> I've now (had to) read Rich's article. David's second sentence is a wild
>> take-off on what he seems to have said. The word "seems" is where the problem
>> seems to lie.
>>
>> Just some reactions to latest posts.
>>
>> --mkb
>>
>> On Aug 1, 2010, at 2:45 PM, David Green wrote:
>>
>>> The two liberal responses in today's NYT are interesting. Rich's is that the
>>> Afghan war is on its downside, everyone knows it, so let's attend to other
>>> issues while war is ended by some vague process that will not require
>>> voluntary action on the part of the citizenry.
>>> Thomas Friedman's response is that Americans are being played for suckers by
>>> our puppets, including Karzai, and the Pakistanis. He also offers an account
>>> that differentiates between the Saudi royal family and the Wahabbi sect--I
>>> haven't heard this before, and I suspect its either fiction or exaggerated.
>>> Of course, we nurtured the most "extreme" forces for our original foray into
>>> Afghanistan during the Carter administration.
>>> In any event, in Friedman's narrative, idealistic well-intentioned Americans
>>> are being victimized by those trying to help them. Rich doesn't go that
>>> far--implicitly well-intentioned Americans have simply made lots of mistakes.
>>> In addition, there's enough megalomania between these four ears to fill a
>>> wing of a psychiatric hospital, or perhaps the Pentagon.
>>> DG
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>>
>>> *To:* Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net <mailto:mkbrussel at comcast.net>>
>>> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
>>> *Sent:* Sun, August 1, 2010 2:12:03 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…
>>>
>>> American liberalism is a closed oyster into which a mere grain of sand - the
>>> Wikileaks documents - has penetrated. Here we see that echt liberal Frank
>>> Rich, equal to the challenge, beginning the process of covering the offending
>>> element with a first layer of nacre, by the same living process as is used in
>>> the secretion of the mother of pearl covering that lines liberalism's shell...
>>>
>>> Behold - a pearl!
>>>
>>> Kiss This War Goodbye
>>> By FRANK RICH
>>> Published: July 31, 2010
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01rich.html?_r=2&hp
>>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01rich.html?_r=2&hp>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/1/10 11:37 AM, Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>> > *From Paul Street on a ZNet article:*
>>> >
>>> > “The lesson; no, the message; no, um, the takeaway of the leaked documents is
>>> > not: if only they knew how badly it's going, how hard it's going to be, then the
>>> > administration would bring an end to the conflict. Rather, the takeaway; no, the
>>> > message is that even knowing how badly the war goes, they persist. The lesson is
>>> > not the Administration's blindness, but its dogged intransigence, its total
>>> > commitment to the endeavor, regardless of the means or outcome, regardless of
>>> > the possibility of reward, regardless of the cost, regardless of suffering,
>>> > regardless of sense and duration. The United States has an institutional
>>> > commitment to the occupation of Afghanistan. It can't be argued out of it.”*[7]*
>>> > *
>>> > *
>>> > One of the best reflections about Wiki-Leaks and related matters. See
>>> >
>>> > http://www.zcommunications.org/revealing-moments-by-paul-street
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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