[Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…

Tue Aug 3 10:04:47 CDT 2010

It seems to me that what's most fundamental is that people recognize their 
enemies. That may sound rigid and moralistic, but in class terms I don't think 
so. So progressives think Frank Rich is their friend, and Thomas Friedman is 
their friend when he promotes "environmental reform." But they're not, of 
course. Similarly, people thought Obama was their friend, but he never was and 
never will be, but for that the antiwar movement basically rolled over and died. 
Both Obama and Rich have had rather seductive ways of presenting themselves as 
"progressive." That's very much part of the ruling agenda, and understanding 
that would seem fundamental to organizing a movement that doesn't depend on 
people rotting in prison.

________________________________
From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 1:24:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:59 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

John, it really does matter how this is being spun by liberal elite 
opinion-shapers at the NYT, primarily Rich and Freidman. Because like in 
Vietnam, they have to shape a certain narrative as to enable them to go kill 
again. "Good intentions gone wrong," "quagmire," "nation-building can't be done 
unless people help themselves," at best--at worst, "stab-in-the-back" by liberal 
media, appeasement, etc. Ultimately, no apologies, no guilt, no reparations, 
"Vietnam was painful for both sides." Again, who controls the narrative controls 
the present, who controls the present controls the past, who controls the past 
controls the future. 

>
>Yes, this is very important for "y'all" to think about, if you wouldn't mind. 
>Rich's columns are the tactics to Obama's strategy.
>
>DG

I guess y'all - primarily you and Carl, in this instance - still don't 
understand my question.  On this list you're largely preaching to the choir.  
You don't have a national column to reach the audience that Frank Rich and 
Thomas Friedman are able to reach.  You don't "control the narrative", although 
you would of course like to.  Even Noam Chomsky doesn't "control the 
narrative".  You both have small local followings, but even locally you're 
perceived by the "silent majority" as extremists.  For whom are you doing this 
elaborate and repetitive deconstruction, this parsing of sentences and 
paragraphs?

I dunno.  I still say that the only effective means of social change is civil 
disobedience, usually carrried out over a long period of time and at great 
personal sacrifice.  And sometimes that doesn't even work, in which case events 
just have to play out, run their absurd course.  People of genuine conscience 
have to die or rot in prison.  Empires have to collapse of their own weight and 
corruption.

But no, I don't mind.  You intellectuals have to have something to do, I guess, 
while awaiting the inevitable denouement.  I suppose parsing the words of other 
intellectuals, or pseudo-intellectuals, is as good a pastime as any.  I can't 
say that I don't enjoy it, once in a while.

________________________________
From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> 
>
>To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss 
><peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 12:09:00 PM 
>
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…
>
>
>
>You know I'm not very smart, and sometimes have trouble following these arcane 
>threads.  Someone please remind me why Frank Rich's precise turns of phrase are 
>the most important thing that y'all have to talk and think about.  Are you in 
>danger of becoming complacent if ol' Frank finally admits that the war in 
>Afghanistan is "morally wrong" and not merely some manner of mistake?
>
>John
>
>
>On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 
>Mort, it's not at all clear that Rich thinks we should get out. Although he is 
>an editorial columnist, he says nothing throughout of his own views. The closest 
>he comes is this: As the president conducts his scheduled reappraisal of his war 
>policy this December, a re-examination of 1971 might lead him to question his 
>own certitude of what he is fond of calling “the long view.” 
>
>>That's obtuse, and for a reason. And indeed the lessons of "1971" aren't at all 
>>clear, if one is serious about making even this argument re what "might lead" 
>>Obama. Neither the army nor the population is rebelling against the war, and the 
>>economic downturn that has accompanied it does not seem to be bothering the 
>>interests of capital, broadly speaking. In fact, it has benefitted them 
>>greatly--the economic world is very different than it was in 1971, and the 
>>resource stakes are much higher in the ME than in Southeast Asia.
>>
>>There is no certainty at all, as Rich suggests, that we are on the downside of 
>>this war. So his column is counsel for complacency.
>>
>>With you, it has seemed to work.
>>
>>DG
>>
>>
>>
________________________________

>>From: Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>
>>
>>To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss 
>><peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 10:44:24 AM 
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The message of wiki-leaks…
>>
>>
>>Again, you beg the question with the statement below. It's clear that Rich 
>>thinks we should get out of Afghanistan. That's specific, and positive, despite 
>>all else. I also want the U.S. forces "out". That's the most important thing at 
>>the moment, in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and elsewhere.    
>>
>>
>>
>>As for Carl, he can twist anything for his purposes, as with use of the word 
>>"quagmire" as an excuse for hiding criminality. 
>>
>>
>>It is one thing to say that you are not satisfied, or strongly dissatisfied with 
>>the positions and writings of someone like Rich, but I believe your twisting of 
>>what can be helpful in stopping the killing is perverse. Get off your 
>>ideological horse.
>>
>>
>>
>>--mkb
>>
>>
>>On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:57 AM, David Green wrote:
>>
>>On a broader level, everyone wants peace, albeit on their own terms.

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