[Peace-discuss] [cchcc-l] Saturday's Health Reform Update &Take Action!

Mon Mar 22 20:14:07 CDT 2010

Yeah, I think we all mostly agree, though I know that sounds silly.  And I know I disagree with many of my friends on part of what I said here.

But did you mean that you disagree with this part, too: " ...of all the people I know who have actually organized a single event around 
that proposal [single payer] - most of them supported this bill"?  In fact I'm not sure I can name one counterexample, that is, someone who has organized an event for single payer but who also opposed this bill -- to my knowledge anyway.

Let's be clear, though.  I originally thought, without a whopping big "public option" no version of the plan would be worth passing.  When I looked at the specifics I changed my mind.

Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn

--- On Mon, 3/22/10, Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:

From: Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [cchcc-l] Saturday's Health Reform Update &Take Action!
To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
Cc: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>, "unionyes" <unionyes at ameritech.net>, "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 2:57 PM

Ricky,
I like your first paragraph but disagree with the rest. 
Did you read/listen to what Nader had to say (on DemocracyNow!) about this bill? He wanted it defeated if it didn't have a public option.  Have you listened to the Moyers PBS programs on this issue? 
The "public option" is/was not equivalent to a single payer system, so it was not an all-or-nothing-at-all situation. It would have been a compromise. 
Now, the insurance companies and big pharma have gained more power than ever, and thus the present situation is likely to endure, especially with the present corruption in our government, i.e., you can wait till hell freezes over before a single payer system or a medicare-for-all  option appears on the horizon. 
It is difficult to assess, in fact , whether more will suffer or be saved by this bill in the long run, a bill which will not come much into effect before 2014. 
So I'm more than disappointed by the CCHCC and the Democratic triumphalism in having passed this lousy bill.
My 2¢  --mkb

On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
Well, first what I agree with:  The Democrats are not "friends and allies" of the working class.  We need single payer and we need it not just yesterday generations ago.  Ultimately the only solution is to take profit out of the game entirely.  Independent oversight will still be necessary, even then.  There is no end to the struggle.  The bill that passed is not the one we needed, have needed for so long.  There are serious problems with the bill as it stands, and it is by no means certain that those problems will not remain.  It is very likely that the popular forces organized to pass this bill will gear down quite a lot now.  Insurance companies will profit.  The cards are definitely stacked against most people, who aren't well-to-do.

However, it does not follow that nothing can be accomplished in this
 game.  OSHA, for example, has saved thousands of lives, prevented many thousands of injuries and illnesses, almost certainly, and yet it was a compromise.  

I must disagree with the assertion that nobody will be helped by this health care bill.  Millions of people, among them members of my own family, will benefit from things like closing the Medicare doughnut hole, just for one example.  That is why both CCHCC and CBHC, though they do not often see eye to eye, supported the bill in the end.  Because "no compromise" means people will die, people will get sicker, who would not if we compromise.

I know, I know.  In the long run if we do not get single payer, in fact if we do not overthrow capitalism and the state, people will sicken and die who would not.  I'm just not thrilled about the chances of any of that at the moment.  The idea that defeating this itty-bitty reform will raise expectations I
 don't find convincing; more likely it will lower expectations, according to the pattern as I see it anyway.  It is not enough for people to be angry.  If it were, we'd have solved a lot of other problems by now, too.  People also have to have some reason to believe that a particular effort will pay off in some way.  People are not stupid, and they are very busy trying to stay afloat.  Heaping all our eggs in the single payer basket is a very risky business indeed if you're already getting your lights shut off because of health care costs.

Look, the movement has to come first, not the bill.  If the movement, the protest, the disruption, the organization, is there, then, sure, fight for the bill.  But to say that passing this bill will quench the movement?  What that says is the movement is pretty easily quenched.  That is, it isn't there.  Single payer has been out there for years - where are the
 masses in the streets demanding it?  I'm not slamming people.  There's a lot going on, etc.  I'm just saying the movement isn't there.  Yet.  Single payer polls well, sure, and I support it, but of all the people I know who have actually organized a single event around that proposal - most of them supported this bill.

That tells me a lot about what is possible.

Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn

--- On Sun, 3/21/10, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:

From: unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [cchcc-l] Saturday's Health Reform Update &Take Action!
To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010, 5:45 PM

Here is the problem John,

We have some really excellent well intentioned and hard 
working activists for health care for all in both CCHCC and CBHC.

With that said, I seem to perceive that many of these 
activists are under the dellusion that the democratic party in general are their 
" friends " and that they can " play " the political process to obtain their ( 
our ) objectives.

What they fail to understand is that it is a rigged 
game.
We cannot  compete in the political game 
with the same failing startegies for two main reasons.

1) We cannot match corporate money. WE need to hit 
them ( the sell-out corporate dems ) where it hurts the most, deny them our 
; volunteer campaign time ( phone banks, door to door, etc. ) and our 
votes, and our money as well.

Look at organized labor this last election. 
HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of rank and file Union members doing 
phone banks and door to door for Obama and the Dems, and the votes of 
Union members and their families ( which is a huge percentage of working class 
votes since Union members have a much higher voter registration rate than 
their non-Union counterparts ). This made ALL of the difference 
in swing states like ; Indiana, Ohio, Iowa, Virginia, North Carolina, and 
Florida, which would NOT have went to Obama otherwise.
What was Organized Labor's pay back 
?...
Totally ignored and patronized by the Obama admin. 
and the dems in general in regards to ANY of their issues ( in particular the 
Employee Free Choice Act ).
Basicly, a " thank you very much, fuck you 
very much " response.

In essence, this is what the dem poitician"s 
attitude is ; That we are too stupid to realize that we are being played in a " 
good cop / bad cop " game. They ( most dems and repubs ) are on the same 
corporate team, playing against us ( WE THE PEOPLE ).
And that even if some of us realize that we 
are being played, that we have no where else to go. That we won't vote 
republican or for a third party.
They think the majority of the American people 
are sheep and that they can play both sides of the street ( corporate money and 
the votes of the people ).
Well time has shown who always wins out in that 
scenario.

2) We are allowing the corporate media 
to control the narrative, that is, define the issues.
     This is what caused 
Kucinich last week to cave-in.

3) Many activists think that some reform is 
better than no reform, even when it harms the long-term 
objective.

We all need to think and act outside the box. 
NOT play by their rules. Define our own narrative by speaking the truth and 
REFUSING to submit to compromise that harms the long-term 
objective.

One manifestation of this should be our refusal 
to support dems or ANY candidate for public office in the 2010 election who 
take corporate money.
The other practice ( in my opinion ) should be 
to tell our ; friends family, neighbors, co-workers, etc. not just the previous, 
but also to stop watching and listening to the corporate media for 
information.
It is all lies and distortions and most people 
acknowledge this, but most still watch and listen to it out of 
habit.

Just my opinions, but we MUST change the 
strategies.
Because the traditional tactics are NOT 
working.

David Johnson

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  John W. 

  To: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com 
  Cc: Peace-discuss List ; Karen Medina 

  Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 2:35 
PM
  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [cchcc-l] 
  Saturday's Health Reform Update &Take Action!

  On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> 
  wrote:

  CBHC 
    is urging a yes vote, just like CCHCC.
See: http://www.cbhconline.org/index.html

  Well, it's still not reform in any meaningful sense.  It's a 
  demon-spawned death bill.

    On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Karen Medina <kmedina67 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
    I am with you, David. This is not reform. This bill will hurt people
> 
    and help the insurance companies. The people need universal health
> 
    care.
>
> I am surprised and confused as to why the CCHCC 
    supports the bill.
>
> I am pretty sure Jim Duffet's group 
    members (for health care reform)
> do not support the 
    bill.
>
> -karen medina

--
Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign 
    Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org

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